Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Sun Nov 26, 2023 6:57 pm**

Okay, I've got units with zero supply sitting on a supply line. Plenty of ammo, food, and fuel in the stockpiles. What am I missing here?

Posted: **Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:16 pm**

Can you attach your save file so we can locate the source of the problem?

From that image alone, it looks logistics related, but it's hard to narrow it down further than that.

Posted: **Sun Nov 26, 2023 10:22 pm**

Yeah, it is very difficult to diagnose supply issues in SE from a picture.

One thing I recall throwing me for a loop early on was that the black square in the lower left of the counter does not mean out of supply, it means it didn't receive requested supplies. And that can translate to a lot of cases. For example, maybe your units are full up on food but requested ammo and the SHQ didn't have ammo available. That would show up like your pic, a black supply received indicator, even though there is plenty of logistic capacity.

-Mark R.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:57 am**

Just strategic move them back to the city/ maybe allow the city to send them resources? We don't know how big your empire is so it's hard to say if you have truck ap points left, you have logistics points but that isn't all that is required. It is definitely weird but it is also militia, it also does seem like they are dying.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:10 pm**

Given it's a militia, you don't need to provide supplies for it. Therefore the only possible issue are logistics. However the militia to the North looks fine. The only thing that comes to mind is that you have a bottleneck to the North of your city, close enough that the militia in the city can be supplied through organic logistics and far enough that the others can't.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:05 pm**

mroyer wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2023 10:22 pm Yeah, it is very difficult to diagnose supply issues in SE from a picture.

One thing I recall throwing me for a loop early on was that the black square in the lower left of the counter does not mean out of supply, it means it didn't receive requested supplies. And that can translate to a lot of cases. For example, maybe your units are full up on food but requested ammo and the SHQ didn't have ammo available. That would show up like your pic, a black supply received indicator, even though there is plenty of logistic capacity.

-Mark R.

Plenty of ammo and food available. Whether it is getting to the unit is what I don't understand; it is showing 0 supply.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:08 pm**

PersonyPerson wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:16 pm Can you attach your save file so we can locate the source of the problem?

From that image alone, it looks logistics related, but it's hard to narrow it down further than that.

The forum will not allow me to attach the game file because the ext isn't one recognized by the forum.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:13 pm**

mroyer wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2023 10:22 pm Yeah, it is very difficult to diagnose supply issues in SE from a picture.

One thing I recall throwing me for a loop early on was that the black square in the lower left of the counter does not mean out of supply, it means it didn't receive requested supplies. And that can translate to a lot of cases. For example, maybe your units are full up on food but requested ammo and the SHQ didn't have ammo available. That would show up like your pic, a black supply received indicator, even though there is plenty of logistic capacity.

-Mark R.

The level of logistical complexity in this game is frustrating at times and detracts from enjoying it when you are simulating running a "country", but have to get into the weeds of running the logistics. That is what a logistics staff is for.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:56 pm**

So I ended the turn and magically the units are fully supplied this turn. Checked for bottlenecks and there were major ones around my capital, but units between the unsupplied ones were fully supplied, as were those on the opposite side of another bottleneck north of the capital. Now, without doing anything, or completing any new logistic sources, the bottlenecks are gone.

Trying to decipher the algorithms running logistics in this game is tiring. Does someone have a simple guide to when, where, and why to place logistical assets in this game? Because so far, the ones I've seen on YouTube fall short. And yes, before someone posts the tired trope about amateurs study tactics and professionals study logistics, I do understand the importance of logistics in military operations. I just don't want it to be the majority of my interaction with a game.

There seems to be a lot of this fascination with logistics in the games I've bought from Matrix where designers insist on burdening players with the minutiae of logistical planning. In reality, generals have whole staff sections devoted to this to relieve the general of this requirement. With all the "staff" sections represented in the game, none are logistics. I don't understand why we don't replicate this better in games, or at least give players the option to automate this if they don't find bean counting so enjoyable.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:03 pm**

havoc1371 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:08 pm
PersonyPerson wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:16 pm Can you attach your save file so we can locate the source of the problem?

From that image alone, it looks logistics related, but it's hard to narrow it down further than that.
The forum will not allow me to attach the game file because the ext isn't one recognized by the forum.

You can just make a copy of the save, compress it as a ZIP file and then you can attach the save through that.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:57 pm**

havoc1371 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:56 pm So I ended the turn and magically the units are fully supplied this turn. Checked for bottlenecks and there were major ones around my capital, but units between the unsupplied ones were fully supplied, as were those on the opposite side of another bottleneck north of the capital. Now, without doing anything, or completing any new logistic sources, the bottlenecks are gone.

Trying to decipher the algorithms running logistics in this game is tiring. Does someone have a simple guide to when, where, and why to place logistical assets in this game? Because so far, the ones I've seen on YouTube fall short. And yes, before someone posts the tired trope about amateurs study tactics and professionals study logistics, I do understand the importance of logistics in military operations. I just don't want it to be the majority of my interaction with a game.

There seems to be a lot of this fascination with logistics in the games I've bought from Matrix where designers insist on burdening players with the minutiae of logistical planning. In reality, generals have whole staff sections devoted to this to relieve the general of this requirement. With all the "staff" sections represented in the game, none are logistics. I don't understand why we don't replicate this better in games, or at least give players the option to automate this if they don't find bean counting so enjoyable.

This is a pretty good, albeit oldish, tutorial on logistics in SE (in case you haven't seen it yet):
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=359758

I don't disagree with you and, indeed, I found it very difficult to work my way through logistics in the early days when I first started playing SE - one can drive ones-self mad with minutiae. After a while, though, I found that I began to get a gut feel for how much logistics was necessary where and when and could anticipate problem areas. Once that happened, I rarely ran into full bottleneck situations and just monitored from a very high level where bottlenecks might be developing.

I now rarely dig into the minutiae - as you say, in effect my staff is devoted to this. But, unlike a watered down logistics system, when I want to dig down to the nuts-n-bolts level, I can. When I'm running an amphibious assault on a shoe string, I can figure out details until my head hurts, if I choose to. When I'm trying to balance resources and assets between zones and the SHQ or armies at the front, I just build enough assets until the bottlenecks are green (or maybe yellow) and then don't worry about it.

It took a while to get to that point and I feel your frustration.

-Mark R.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:27 pm**

mroyer wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:57 pm
havoc1371 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:56 pm So I ended the turn and magically the units are fully supplied this turn. Checked for bottlenecks and there were major ones around my capital, but units between the unsupplied ones were fully supplied, as were those on the opposite side of another bottleneck north of the capital. Now, without doing anything, or completing any new logistic sources, the bottlenecks are gone.

Trying to decipher the algorithms running logistics in this game is tiring. Does someone have a simple guide to when, where, and why to place logistical assets in this game? Because so far, the ones I've seen on YouTube fall short. And yes, before someone posts the tired trope about amateurs study tactics and professionals study logistics, I do understand the importance of logistics in military operations. I just don't want it to be the majority of my interaction with a game.

There seems to be a lot of this fascination with logistics in the games I've bought from Matrix where designers insist on burdening players with the minutiae of logistical planning. In reality, generals have whole staff sections devoted to this to relieve the general of this requirement. With all the "staff" sections represented in the game, none are logistics. I don't understand why we don't replicate this better in games, or at least give players the option to automate this if they don't find bean counting so enjoyable.

This is a pretty good, albeit oldish, tutorial on logistics in SE (in case you haven't seen it yet):
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=359758

I don't disagree with you and, indeed, I found it very difficult to work my way through logistics in the early days when I first started playing SE - one can drive ones-self mad with minutiae. After a while, though, I found that I began to get a gut feel for how much logistics was necessary where and when and could anticipate problem areas. Once that happened, I rarely ran into full bottleneck situations and just monitored from a very high level where bottlenecks might be developing.

I now rarely dig into the minutiae - as you say, in effect my staff is devoted to this. But, unlike a watered down logistics system, when I want to dig down to the nuts-n-bolts level, I can. When I'm running an amphibious assault on a shoe string, I can figure out details until my head hurts, if I choose to. When I'm trying to balance resources and assets between zones and the SHQ or armies at the front, I just build enough assets until the bottlenecks are green (or maybe yellow) and then don't worry about it.

It took a while to get to that point and I feel your frustration.

-Mark R.

Wow. If that is the "simplest" explanation of logistics for this game then I have no chance and successfully playing it. I play to enjoy myself, not to learn a new occupation. Good grief, that was mind numbing. I guess at 61 years old I don't have the attention span or devotion to spend this much time trying to master a single game. I think this will join War Plan and others in my pile of games that seemed promising, but regulated to the electron dustbin due to the overboard complexity of the logistics system.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:32 pm**

PersonyPerson wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:03 pm
havoc1371 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:08 pm
PersonyPerson wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:16 pm Can you attach your save file so we can locate the source of the problem?

From that image alone, it looks logistics related, but it's hard to narrow it down further than that.
The forum will not allow me to attach the game file because the ext isn't one recognized by the forum.
You can just make a copy of the save, compress it as a ZIP file and then you can attach the save through that.

I've already cycled the turn, so too late to see what happened. Doesn't matter, as I think I've determined that this game is just not for me. Better suited for someone who likes crunching numbers, making calculations, and looking at logistical charts to play a game. I'll stick to games that figure out the logistics for me and simply let me handle the tactics and strategy.

Posted: **Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:41 am**

havoc1371 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:27 pm Wow. If that is the "simplest" explanation of logistics for this game then I have no chance and successfully playing it. I play to enjoy myself, not to learn a new occupation. Good grief, that was mind numbing. I guess at 61 years old I don't have the attention span or devotion to spend this much time trying to master a single game. I think this will join War Plan and others in my pile of games that seemed promising, but regulated to the electron dustbin due to the overboard complexity of the logistics system.

Funny how two people can come to such opposite conclusions about the same exact thing

At 65, I feel like I finally found an awesome game that doesn't demand I master every nuance or endlessly factor-fiddle and perform mind-numbing logistic calculations. I have enjoyed SE more and longer than any other computer game, ever.

-Mark R.

Posted: **Tue Nov 28, 2023 3:24 am**

havoc1371 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:32 pm
PersonyPerson wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:03 pm
havoc1371 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:08 pm

The forum will not allow me to attach the game file because the ext isn't one recognized by the forum.
You can just make a copy of the save, compress it as a ZIP file and then you can attach the save through that.
I've already cycled the turn, so too late to see what happened. Doesn't matter, as I think I've determined that this game is just not for me. Better suited for someone who likes crunching numbers, making calculations, and looking at logistical charts to play a game. I'll stick to games that figure out the logistics for me and simply let me handle the tactics and strategy.

It looks complicated from afar and at first, with it's multiple view screens to see your logistics situation but it really isn't once the basics are understood.

All that really needs to be known is that you need to have more logistics points than what your troops are demanding. Best thing to do (imo) is to go overkill on logistics points (by upgrading the truck stations) and then learn backwards from a position from abundance, so if any logistics issue does arise, it isn't game crippling. Over time you'll start noticing the causes of all the penalties and then start playing around with all possible the ways to optimise logistics.

Shadow Empire is one of these games where you learn step by step rather than in one huge go.

Posted: **Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:42 pm**

mroyer wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:41 am
havoc1371 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:27 pm Wow. If that is the "simplest" explanation of logistics for this game then I have no chance and successfully playing it. I play to enjoy myself, not to learn a new occupation. Good grief, that was mind numbing. I guess at 61 years old I don't have the attention span or devotion to spend this much time trying to master a single game. I think this will join War Plan and others in my pile of games that seemed promising, but regulated to the electron dustbin due to the overboard complexity of the logistics system.
Funny how two people can come to such opposite conclusions about the same exact thing

At 65, I feel like I finally found an awesome game that doesn't demand I master every nuance or endlessly factor-fiddle and perform mind-numbing logistic calculations. I have enjoyed SE more and longer than any other computer game, ever.

-Mark R.

You don't consider having to analyze your supply routes every turn for logistical bottlenecks, checking unit demands for supply and current flow, and comparing capability to future demand "endlessly factor-fiddle"? Well like I said before, some folks like bean counting in their war games. Glad you like it.

Posted: **Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:49 pm**

Work is slowly progressing on the option to play with Midcore Logistics. You can already try the alpha version when flagging this option setting up a new game. The idea here is that you'll have to do less micro management and basically just build more logistical assets once you run out of logistics somewhere. I recommend you give it a try and also flag "easier logistics" at the same time.

Posted: **Tue Nov 28, 2023 7:42 pm**

Vic wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:49 pm Work is slowly progressing on the option to play with Midcore Logistics. You can already try the alpha version when flagging this option setting up a new game. The idea here is that you'll have to do less micro management and basically just build more logistical assets once you run out of logistics somewhere. I recommend you give it a try and also flag "easier logistics" at the same time.

That sounds good. I'd settle for an advisory pop up with something to the effect of, "Sir, there is a logistical bottleneck developing in hex's #### to #### due to "ABC", recommend that a truck stop be built in hex #### to alleviate the issue." This kind of advice would help me figure out the problems as well as warn me prior to it becoming critical.

Posted: **Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:13 pm**

Vic wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:49 pm Work is slowly progressing on the option to play with Midcore Logistics. You can already try the alpha version when flagging this option setting up a new game. The idea here is that you'll have to do less micro management and basically just build more logistical assets once you run out of logistics somewhere. I recommend you give it a try and also flag "easier logistics" at the same time.

I started a new game. Selected "simplified logistics". I don't see anything different in the game, so what does this do? Just give me more points but still requires the same tedious management of supply lines manually?

Didn't get far as the game started with a minor capital only 3 hexes from mine and while I was surrounding it, spawned a massive alien unit between my troops and my capital in my controlled area and completely cut off all my units by eating up all the hexes between my capital city hex and my units. I just quit the game in frustration.

Posted: **Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:07 pm**

Just started another game with the "dispersed" setting and here I am again with another nation spawning just hexes away from my capital. Is this game broke? I've played about a dozen games now with "spread out" setting and almost every one starts with enemy on my doorstep.

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