Matrix Games Forums

Okay, can someone explain to me how I had a successful roll but it failed anyway?

The commander passed the skill check, but you had 0 soldiers.

It's a bit unusual, but makes sense. Good luck containing a riot with no riot police.

There's a few stratagems, like this one, that use the same mechanic as decisions where you can send in the military to suppress unrest. Presumably the skill roll affects the performance of the troops, but you still need to have an adequate number of troops (and/or security assets, which also make a contribution) in the first place in order to succeed in suppressing the unrest.

When I saw this I was thinking...is the issue/bug the '0 soldiers', or were none available to begin with.

So you need to leave troops in the pool in case of riots? I guess I need to make sure of that when I build new units, in case the one turn I used all the troops to build with coincides with one of these events. Games that require you to devote so much attention to a myriad of issues are tedious, frustrating, and annoying. Makes it more work than fun. Must have missed the high complexity rating when I bought this. Seeing there was almost a 400 page manual once I bought it should've been the red flag. Lesson learned.

Any troops in the city hex of the zone affected by the stratagem or decision count.

havoc1371 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:36 pm Games that require you to devote so much attention to a myriad of issues are tedious, frustrating, and annoying. Makes it more work than fun. Must have missed the high complexity rating when I bought this. Seeing there was almost a 400 page manual once I bought it should've been the red flag. Lesson learned.

What makes Shadow Empire such a great game is all the details one must pay attention to in order to survive/maybe even win; & offering one of the best manuals for any game I have seen is an added bonus. imho
Otherwise, this game would have very little to no interest for me, at least.
One of my best friends can't handle all the micro-managing either; though we do disagree on just how much there is.

I think wargames would sell more if they catered to non grognards and actually always included a newbie or arcade level of play. So what if I'm an inattentive private and you are an intergalactic general.

I've got Shadow Empire and probably only played an hour or so
I've got War in The East 2 ""
I've got War in the Pacific ""

Etc - although those, and many of the 60 or so others I've got are "great games", I won't recommend them.

I'm a financial support person for wargame designers. Matrix should thank me.

altipueri wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:28 am I think wargames would sell more if they catered to non grognards and actually always included a newbie or arcade level of play. So what if I'm an inattentive private and you are an intergalactic general.

I've got Shadow Empire and probably only played an hour or so
I've got War in The East 2 ""
I've got War in the Pacific ""

Etc - although those, and many of the 60 or so others I've got are "great games", I won't recommend them.

I'm a financial support person for wargame designers. Matrix should thank me.

Agree. And some level of delegating actions. War in the East is a great game, but I find myself starting to get numb by the time I get halfway through moving my units. It requires a certain devotion and focus to play a game that needs a couple hours just to play a turn competently.

Why ShEmp IMHO shines on smaller maps.

(There are the Planetoid, Moon and Hydroid planetary classes that offer smaller map sizes than usual.
This mod also makes normal size smaller (though not as small as small), might ask the author for more smaller sizes planets ?)

But then this is an issue that (almost ?) all 4X share : exponential growth means that the interface is soon creaking under the weight of all the stuff you have to manage.

Yeah, some (including ShEmp) promise automation options, but I find using them to be less rewarding than learning the game in depth.
They are great for roleplaying I guess, but I rarely roleplay.

eddieballgame wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:45 am

havoc1371 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:36 pm Games that require you to devote so much attention to a myriad of issues are tedious, frustrating, and annoying. Makes it more work than fun. Must have missed the high complexity rating when I bought this. Seeing there was almost a 400 page manual once I bought it should've been the red flag. Lesson learned.

What makes Shadow Empire such a great game is all the details one must pay attention to in order to survive/maybe even win; & offering one of the best manuals for any game I have seen is an added bonus. imho
Otherwise, this game would have very little to no interest for me, at least.
One of my best friends can't handle all the micro-managing either; though we do disagree on just how much there is.

What you think makes it great is tedious to me. I don't play games to micromanage; I play to have fun. I imagine to those who like to focus everything they have into learning a 400 page rulebook and all the nuances of a complex logistical role playing wargame love this. I have limited time and energy in my day, which is why an adviser feature telling me what logistical choices I should make (i.e. "place a truck station in hex ##,## to optimize supply from hex XX,XX to YY,YY") would be a great help.

BlueTemplar wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2023 6:55 pm Why ShEmp IMHO shines on smaller maps.
...
But then this is an issue that (almost ?) all 4X share : exponential growth means that the interface is soon creaking under the weight of all the stuff you have to manage.

Strongly agreed. I won't play maps larger than the smallest planet size anymore, the couple of multiplayer games I was in where other players wanted larger ones turned out to be a grossly unreasonable amount of micromanagement.

havoc1371 wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:25 am [...](i.e. "place a truck station in hex ##,## to optimize supply from hex XX,XX to YY,YY") would be a great help.

Some kind of helper that interactively shows, for instance when you select a truck station/depot that you just ordered, where exactly the logipoints will start to fall off after the asset is completed, would be certainly great to have.

(Ideally, we would be able to select & drop them from the road-building menu, with the indicators refreshed in real time as you move your cursor over different hexes, but I doubt that the engine is up to that ?)

BlueTemplar wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:37 pm

havoc1371 wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:25 am [...](i.e. "place a truck station in hex ##,## to optimize supply from hex XX,XX to YY,YY") would be a great help.

Some kind of helper that interactively shows, for instance when you select a truck station/depot that you just ordered, where exactly the logipoints will start to fall off after the asset is completed, would be certainly great to have.

(Ideally, we would be able to select & drop them from the road-building menu, with the indicators refreshed in real time as you move your cursor over different hexes, but I doubt that the engine is up to that ?)

At least something that highlights the hexes where a truck station, supply depot, etc., would be most beneficial. As it is, I doubt I will play this much in the future as the micromanagement aspects of the game turn me off. Some people thrive on bean counting and enjoy it; I'm definitely not one of those. I play military games for the tactics and strategy, not plotting logistical routes and budget planning. Of course there will be someone quoting the maxim about amateurs and professionals in regards to logistics, because they actually have no real clue how the military works. Generals have staffs that take care of all that and provide the commander with advice on the best options; they don't manage it themselves. This is the second of Matrix games I'm shelving because of overboard micromanagement issues. I am highly unlikely to buy another game here without combing more thoroughly through all the reviews to make sure I don't pick another one of these "odes" to supply and micromanagement.

havoc1371 wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:36 pmOf course there will be someone quoting the maxim about amateurs and professionals in regards to logistics, because they actually have no real clue how the military works. Generals have staffs that take care of all that and provide the commander with advice on the best options; they don't manage it themselves. This is the second of Matrix games I'm shelving because of overboard micromanagement issues. I am highly unlikely to buy another game here without combing more thoroughly through all the reviews to make sure I don't pick another one of these "odes" to supply and micromanagement.

Geez... you're like a dog with a bone - you just won't let go. We all heard you the first and the second and the third, etc..., time you said this. You've been told about 10 times that you're wrong: SE doesn't require micro-management, but allows for it if you choose to do so. If you can't hear that, or choose not to believe it, then either stop endlessly prattling on about it or just move on. Negative commentary that is constructive can be very useful. Negative commentary just sounding off because you're annoyed you spent money on a game you don't like is just wasting everyone's time.

-Mark R.

mroyer wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:32 am

havoc1371 wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:36 pmOf course there will be someone quoting the maxim about amateurs and professionals in regards to logistics, because they actually have no real clue how the military works. Generals have staffs that take care of all that and provide the commander with advice on the best options; they don't manage it themselves. This is the second of Matrix games I'm shelving because of overboard micromanagement issues. I am highly unlikely to buy another game here without combing more thoroughly through all the reviews to make sure I don't pick another one of these "odes" to supply and micromanagement.

Geez... you're like a dog with a bone - you just won't let go. We all heard you the first and the second and the third, etc..., time you said this. You've been told about 10 times that you're wrong: SE doesn't require micro-management, but allows for it if you choose to do so. If you can't hear that, or choose not to believe it, then either stop endlessly prattling on about it or just move on. Negative commentary that is constructive can be very useful. Negative commentary just sounding off because you're annoyed you spent money on a game you don't like is just wasting everyone's time.

-Mark R.

My thoughts, as well, Mark. ( This thread reminds me of the Steam forums )

I am neither a military expert or experienced in Logistics but I find SE playable.
I rely heavily on the chokepoints indicators and just try to make sure all routes are green.
I've noticed since the last patch that if you do a bit of fighting, the chokepoint colour will change to show lack or no supply. I've also noticed that after about a turn or two, it returns to normal. I presume this is the units using up their inherent stocks and awaiting new supply shipments.

Rule of thumb for me. Green good. Everything else bad (but wait a couple of turns before acting if you've just been fighting).

mroyer wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:32 am

havoc1371 wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:36 pmOf course there will be someone quoting the maxim about amateurs and professionals in regards to logistics, because they actually have no real clue how the military works. Generals have staffs that take care of all that and provide the commander with advice on the best options; they don't manage it themselves. This is the second of Matrix games I'm shelving because of overboard micromanagement issues. I am highly unlikely to buy another game here without combing more thoroughly through all the reviews to make sure I don't pick another one of these "odes" to supply and micromanagement.

Geez... you're like a dog with a bone - you just won't let go. We all heard you the first and the second and the third, etc..., time you said this. You've been told about 10 times that you're wrong: SE doesn't require micro-management, but allows for it if you choose to do so. If you can't hear that, or choose not to believe it, then either stop endlessly prattling on about it or just move on. Negative commentary that is constructive can be very useful. Negative commentary just sounding off because you're annoyed you spent money on a game you don't like is just wasting everyone's time.

-Mark R.

I am not wrong. I have my own opinion, and if you bothered to read some of the comments, there are others who think the logistics is overbearing as well. Just because you don't agree doesn't make your right. I will comment any way I please and don't need your permission. I am bringing attention to the fact that this game doesn't have practical levels of applying logistics so you can choose not to micromanage, but allow aspects of it to be managed efficiently by the AI. Change this and I would not need to comment. If you believe there to be a staged system to applying logistics in this game, then share that knowledge, because I don't see it other than checking a box that gives you more points instead of AI assistance. Try that instead of being rude. If not, then take your own advice and "move on".

havoc1371 wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:36 pm So you need to leave troops in the pool in case of riots? I guess I need to make sure of that when I build new units, in case the one turn I used all the troops to build with coincides with one of these events. Games that require you to devote so much attention to a myriad of issues are tedious, frustrating, and annoying. Makes it more work than fun. Must have missed the high complexity rating when I bought this. Seeing there was almost a 400 page manual once I bought it should've been the red flag. Lesson learned.

Garrisoning troops in cities is really not the complex mechanic you try to play it off as. Even Civilization and Total War and other watered down strategy games aimed at mainstream audiences use this mechanic.

Not to mention, you don't need troops garrisoned if you don't use the "USE SOLDIERS TO DISPEL RIOTS" option.

havoc1371 wrote: Sun Dec 31, 2023 9:15 pm

mroyer wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:32 am

havoc1371 wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:36 pmOf course there will be someone quoting the maxim about amateurs and professionals in regards to logistics, because they actually have no real clue how the military works. Generals have staffs that take care of all that and provide the commander with advice on the best options; they don't manage it themselves. This is the second of Matrix games I'm shelving because of overboard micromanagement issues. I am highly unlikely to buy another game here without combing more thoroughly through all the reviews to make sure I don't pick another one of these "odes" to supply and micromanagement.

Geez... you're like a dog with a bone - you just won't let go. We all heard you the first and the second and the third, etc..., time you said this. You've been told about 10 times that you're wrong: SE doesn't require micro-management, but allows for it if you choose to do so. If you can't hear that, or choose not to believe it, then either stop endlessly prattling on about it or just move on. Negative commentary that is constructive can be very useful. Negative commentary just sounding off because you're annoyed you spent money on a game you don't like is just wasting everyone's time.

-Mark R.

I am not wrong. I have my own opinion, and if you bothered to read some of the comments, there are others who think the logistics is overbearing as well. Just because you don't agree doesn't make your right. I will comment any way I please and don't need your permission. I am bringing attention to the fact that this game doesn't have practical levels of applying logistics so you can choose not to micromanage, but allow aspects of it to be managed efficiently by the AI. Change this and I would not need to comment. If you believe there to be a staged system to applying logistics in this game, then share that knowledge, because I don't see it other than checking a box that gives you more points instead of AI assistance. Try that instead of being rude. If not, then take your own advice and "move on".

Skill issue.