Matrix Games Forums

Are they good support units for winter warfare?

Thanks

They are actually one of the most manpower-efficient units in the game, because they have basically 0 support squads. So everything goes directly into combat elements, basically.

IIRC they also get a special bonus in winter combat, but even when it is not winter, they are very good due to that manpower efficiency.

Ski brigades, however, are even better than ski battalions, because they are also manpower-efficient (not many support squads, but they have about as much infantry as a rifle brigade, just without the extra guns that a rifle brigade has). But they are also larger than ski battalions, that is to say that ski brigades have a bigger number than ski battalions (whether the number is CV or men).

Big number > little number, so ski brigades are better.

But you should also always max out ski battalions as well. Their manpower efficiency also makes them great for theater boxes as well, so if you have more than your divisions can use, just send some to theater boxes until you have more divisions/corps that can use them.

What Beethoven said, one can easily create them, man them, keep them in a Theather Box in non winter season and bring them on map for Winter business.
Don't ever disband them or so as they lose the accrued XP and all.

AlbertN wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:37 pm What Beethoven said, one can easily create them, man them, keep them in a Theather Box in non winter season and bring them on map for Winter business.
Don't ever disband them or so as they lose the accrued XP and all.

If you build too many you have soaked up manpower like you would never believe. I have seen it first hand in a game I inherited and that in and if itself defeats the purpose when you need that manpower for other things.

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:00 pm

AlbertN wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:37 pm What Beethoven said, one can easily create them, man them, keep them in a Theather Box in non winter season and bring them on map for Winter business.
Don't ever disband them or so as they lose the accrued XP and all.

If you build too many you have soaked up manpower like you would never believe. I have seen it first hand in a game I inherited and that in and if itself defeats the purpose when you need that manpower for other things.

Even the maximum 100+ batallions will only use ~45k manpower in total, that is 4-5 divisions, less than a turn's worth of men. I doubt they are a drain on the Soviet manpower.

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:00 pmIf you build too many you have soaked up manpower like you would never believe.

If nothing else, you could just send them to theater box and disband some rifle divisions in the theater box. You should end up with more manpower for the same TB value (or alternatively, more TB value for the same manpower) that way due to the manpower-efficiency of the ski units.

Did you do the cost analyst equalvency on this already? A brigade/battalion is equal to how many points compared to a division. Thus how many brigade/battalions are required to replace the div.

They all have a specific weight. I would do it but not around the computer

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:24 pm Did you do the cost analyst equalvency on this already? A brigade/battalion is equal to how many points compared to a division. Thus how many brigade/battalions are required to replace the div.

As far as I understand, TB value (as well as CV) depends on a unit's ground elements, not on per se whether they are a brigade/battalion/etc.

Of course, some types of units get special bonuses (construction units, pioneers, etc) to TB value, but neither ski units, infantry units, or tanks get a special bonus, those all only contribute to the base TB value depending on their CVs. So the TB value from all of those will be directly proportional to their CVs.

From a save I have on turn 32, a ski battalion in the Transcaucasus has .13 CV, with 50 morale and 44 experience (unfortunately I don't have one with 50 morale and 50 experience for a perfectly even comparison):



Meanwhile I have a rifle division in the Northern Front with 50 morale and 48 experience (as close as I can find to 50 morale an 44 experience) which has 2.37 CV and 11878 men:



So we have:

Ski battalion: .13 CV from 452 men
Rifle division: 2.37 CV from 11878 men

452/.13 = ~3477 men required to provide 1 CV
11878/2.37 = ~5011 men required to provide 1 CV

So the ski battalion is about 50% more efficient at providing CV/TB value than the rifle division, even despite the fact that it has lower experience (which will equalize with time).

And the ski battalion also does not require any guns, so that means more guns are available for your on-map infantry divisions/corps.

The reason why the ski units (both battalions and brigades) are so efficient is that they have virtually 0 support squads, whereas rifle divisions waste a bunch of men on useless support squads.



In other words, ski units are basically the polar opposite of Italian Alpini units.

Italian Alpini units are basically pure support with hardly any combat elements, which makes them pretty much useless for anything other than wasting freight and thereby helping the Soviets.

Whereas Soviet Ski units are basically pure combat elements with hardly any support elements, making them ubermensch.

Beethoven1 wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:21 pm In other words, ski units are basically the polar opposite of Italian Alpini units.

Italian Alpini units are basically pure support with hardly any combat elements, which makes them pretty much useless for anything other than wasting freight and thereby helping the Soviets.

Whereas Soviet Ski units are basically pure combat elements with hardly any support elements, making them ubermensch.

I guess some know my favourite thing in the Game already. For everyone not being a Kulik yet, you have 3 tries.
1. No, it's not Soviet Cavalry Divisions. ...why would someone care about them?
2. What? No it's also not Soviet Rifle Corps with attached Rifle Brigades...funny you.
3. what? you give up since you have no idea?
Let me help you, it starts with PT and ends with RD.
And it's not related to its lenght, that I can assure you....cough...

Unknown Soviet PTRD Squad enjoyer wrote: Just look at this beauty of a gun.
It's fullfilling the needs of my red heart and causing lots of fun.
It satisfies my CV, it catches bullets for other elements.
It saves my Manpower and it fills my a... TBs.
It was and is the pinnacle of arms.

Combined arms warfare was born with its creation,
it contains all elements needed for it,
Flesh, Steel and Vodka.
It's like Communism, all good things combined.

Vehicles, it needs not,
and Vodka is its fuel,
the brave man in it riding bears,
that's called Soviet old school.

If you shoot it, if feels good,
and if you are getting shot at by it, it misses badly.
So it contains good and bad in one.
It's the Yin and Yang of Bolshevism.

And you know. Who guessed it right, I am sure it's the best for your western hearted TBs as well!

Beethoven1 wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:21 pm Ski battalion: .13 CV from 452 men
Rifle division: 2.37 CV from 11878 men

452/.13 = ~3477 men required to provide 1 CV
11878/2.37 = ~5011 men required to provide 1 CV

As a true Homo Sovieticus, I use PTRD only.
And a ratio of
184/0.09=2044 men required to provide 1 CV
...is more than justified. Just look at this pair of brave men. They can even fight without vehicles, riding Bears into battle, like true Soviets.

I mean,...

• Why would someone limit the best value Ground Elements Production? (the sky is the limit)
• Why would someone limit such a TOEs build number? (limits are for westerners!)
• And why someone would make building it cost AP? (paying is for capitalists!)
• Why would someone not make an obsolete gun the best asset in a game in the first place?

This two beloved Soviets have everything I need. And they are for free!

I am satisfied, are you?

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FortTell wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:07 pm

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:00 pm

AlbertN wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:37 pm What Beethoven said, one can easily create them, man them, keep them in a Theather Box in non winter season and bring them on map for Winter business.
Don't ever disband them or so as they lose the accrued XP and all.

If you build too many you have soaked up manpower like you would never believe. I have seen it first hand in a game I inherited and that in and if itself defeats the purpose when you need that manpower for other things.

Even the maximum 100+ batallions will only use ~45k manpower in total, that is 4-5 divisions, less than a turn's worth of men. I doubt they are a drain on the Soviet manpower.

Heresy! Stop comparing everything to Division equivalents. The PTRD AT Battalion is the equivalent to compare against!

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:25 pm They all have a specific weight. I would do it but not around the computer

There once was a time when all men were equally brave and strong. Weight did not matter since all were equal and there was no need for a specific weight. Back then you could be who you wanted to be, as long as you were carrying a PTRD, since those men were by far the equalliest.

Attached the Save from this test.

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And here some example math (theoreical calculation).
As you can see you could theoretically replace:

• 250k men with 3k Guns and 400 AFVs which give 48CV
• with 142k Men with 62CV.

Ignoring the difference in needed Trucks which is the cherry on top.

Did you know that brown isn't a color?

"Italian Alpini units are basically pure support with hardly any combat elements, which makes them pretty much useless for anything other than wasting freight and thereby helping the Soviets."

But they have such great hats so let's not forget to factor that in....