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What are some good support units to put in with Soviet cavalry corps?

Thanks

dereck wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:42 am What are some good support units to put in with Soviet cavalry corps?

Thanks

Rifle brigades. When you run out of enough rifle brigades, try to use airborne brigades or ski brigades.

However, what you should NOT use, at least unless there is literally no other choice, are tank brigades.

Remember the core truth of WITE2:

Rifle > tank.

Therefore if you have a choice to go into combat with a rifle or with a tank, always choose the rifle over the tank.

Historically, it is nowadays widely acknowledged that the biggest mistake the Soviets made in WW2 was producing too many T-34s. Some scholars have argued convincingly that if the Soviets had put fewer resources into AFVs and simply built more Mosin Nagants instead, they could have taken Berlin before the end of 1943. But for too long, this truth has been obfuscated by the mythology of the bliztkrieg and of the Panzer which has permeated traditional WW2 historiography. We are only now beginning to see the real truth after the opening of the archives.

Tank brigades can be useful for dealing extra retreat damage by attacking already beaten Germans (a job cav corps often do due to their high mobility), but using them against a decent unit will basically erase them.

FortTell wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:41 pm Tank brigades can be useful for dealing extra retreat damage by attacking already beaten Germans (a job cav corps often do due to their high mobility), but using them against a decent unit will basically erase them.

This is so true.

I guess I am in the “do” column of people putting tank bdes in my Cav corps . I really need to get on the band wagon. But I dont see that happening.

FortTell wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:41 pm Tank brigades can be useful for dealing extra retreat damage by attacking already beaten Germans (a job cav corps often do due to their high mobility), but using them against a decent unit will basically erase them.

It is true that they can get a bonus to retreat losses, but since tank brigades typically only have 1000 men or so, they typically have less CV than a 4000 man rifle brigade, so the 4000 man rifle brigade may do just as well (or better) in a follow-up battle even granted that it does not have that special bonus. A cav corps with rifle brigades will also stand up MUCH better to counterattack than a cav corps with tank brigades, and that alone is good reason to prefer it over one with tank brigades.

What really increases the retreat losses (at least according to an excerpt of the manual Veterin found IIRC) is the binary designation of a unit as "motorized" instead of "infantry." "Motorized" units cause extra retreat losses compared to "infantry." And it is true that tank brigades are designated as "motorized."

However, cavalry corps are designated as "infantry" units.

So if you really want to benefit from the bonus for higher retreat losses from "motorized" units, what you should be doing is trying to use larger motorized units. For Soviets, these are tank/mech divisions (later corps). So the ideal to use would be a bunch of mech/motorized divisions early in the game for Soviets, and later on mech corps (or tank corps). And rather than attaching tank brigades, you should attach motorized brigades or mechanized brigades to them (or also you can attach rifle brigades, and the act of attaching a rifle brigade to a corps which is designated as "motorized" is to change the rifle brigades to also become designated as "motorized."

Or, what is even better (if your rules and AP allow) is to temporarily motorize a Guards Rifle Corps and attach 3 rifle brigades to it. That will do much better than your cav corps + tank brigades on follow-up attacks.

So once again, we are drawn ineluctably to the blessed inequality, as though we were bewildered penguins being sucked into a spiraling vortex:

Rifle > Tank

Are Cav Corps always designated as infantry the whole war? It may change?

Always non-motorised.

They are NON-MOT and have "Supply Only" motorization for all the game.
I guess Beet means that they are "NON-MOT" when he says they are "infantry".

Edit: Jango was quicker.

Wiedrock wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:43 pm I guess Beet means that they are "NON-MOT" when he says they are "infantry".

Yes, apologies for the imprecise terminology.

Beethoven1 wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:50 pm

Wiedrock wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:43 pm I guess Beet means that they are "NON-MOT" when he says they are "infantry".

Yes, apologies for the imprecise terminology.

HOW DARE YOU!

Beethoven1 wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:31 pm

FortTell wrote: Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:41 pm Tank brigades can be useful for dealing extra retreat damage by attacking already beaten Germans (a job cav corps often do due to their high mobility), but using them against a decent unit will basically erase them.

It is true that they can get a bonus to retreat losses, but since tank brigades typically only have 1000 men or so, they typically have less CV than a 4000 man rifle brigade, so the 4000 man rifle brigade may do just as well (or better) in a follow-up battle even granted that it does not have that special bonus. A cav corps with rifle brigades will also stand up MUCH better to counterattack than a cav corps with tank brigades, and that alone is good reason to prefer it over one with tank brigades.

it might be possible that rifle brigade will cause more dmg for a follow up attack than a tank brigade but there is limited amount of rifle brigades, in my recent game in StB i had them maxed out (or close to it) and in some cases it was still not enough

if you use 3 rifle brigades per corps to attack and then assign 3 rifle brigades for a cav/mech/tank corps for a follow up attack then you will not have enough brigades in Stavka on a next turn
so using tank brigades for a follow up attacks is good strategy imo
even if they are lead by a general with bad mech rating, like 4, pretty often they will be still on top of the list by HPE, and in the current state it does not take a lot of CV to beat unit that was already beaten this turn
on top of that it allows you to save some manpower which Soviets are almost always short of and use tanks instead