Matrix Games Forums

Initial Remarks
There were several Threads and AAR posts about this topic already but it seems like the topic never came to a conclusion.
I don't know whether the Devs consider making changes in this area since it came up several times over the years already. If not this may be a good start of some thoughts for modding and keeping it "realistic and balanced".
This Thread was long time planned but never finished. Now since Beethoven woke up all the weird feelings regarding Cavalry "Divisions", the urge woke to finish it.

At first I want to point out that this is not about "Soviet Cavalry" only, but since they've got by far the most of that type of unit it's obviously a Soviet centered topic.
Pls also note that this Thread is about Cavalry and Cavalry only. It's not the place to talk about herding, WW1 grind, general MP issues, mobility of units in Administrative Movement areas or game balance in Single-/Multiplayer overall.


Older Threads concerning Topics touched in this Thread
Example threads Cavalry issues:
Jango's Cavalry Sizes: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=385034
Small Cavalry=Division: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=385263
Cavalry Division vs Brigade sizes: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=377512
Cav Squad Production in WITE1: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=385461
Cavalry Corps and Cavalry Division limits: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7&t=384445
Cavalry Corps breakdown2: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=384029

Something about Partisans:
TB contribution of Cav: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 9&t=368782
Additional Cav Unit for SG TB: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 9&t=373195

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Subjects:

1. Cavalry usage in Multiplayer and the Garrison TB
2. MPs as a Point of view
3. Sizes XX vs X/III
4. Availability of Cavalry for both factions
5. Size Comparison of TOEs of both factions
6. Summary

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1. Cavalry usage in Multiplayer and the Garrison TB
Cavalry seem to be mostly used to Raid/"snail" behind enemy lines, running for Depots/Rail lines or other important targets. It was also done like this during WW2, altough not in such a 100% suicidal way like trying to reach Berlin at all costs (slightly exaggerated). In a wider sense Cavalry is being used to do "Partisan stuff", which is already represented by the Soviet Garrison TB in which many SEC Divisions are and the more mobile-noteworthy, RFSS Brigades and the 8th SS Cavalry Brigade. So instead of engaging those Brigades and Security Divisions the on MAP behind the frontlines, Cavalry engages with frontline Units (or no Units at all), so Axis has to keep frontline units as backup.
Yes, with open TBs the SS Brigades end up on the map, I am aware of this. But since the Partisans are "off MAP" there are many SEC/blocking Divisions missing which would be able to drain the Cavalry off their MPs to beat/avoid them. So even if those SEC Divisions would be forced to be "Static" on map you'd have at least the chance of creating some cover behind the lines using them.
Wikipedia has some List of Cavalry activities for those interested.

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2. MPs as a Point of view
The benefits of Cavalry as a Type of on MAP unit:

• "-1MP" when entering enemy Hexes
• Non-MOT MP costs
  • Deliberate/Hasty attacks at cost of Non-MOT
  • Terrain costs about 1/2 of MOT (it varies a lot)
  • Weather costs about 2/3 of MOT
  • River costs about 1/3 of MOT
• more MPs than other Non-MOT Untis like Infantry (22MP vs 16MP) [+28%]

Negative of Cavalry:

• less MP than MOT (22MP vs 50MP) [-56%]

Only looking at the MPs:

• a Cavalry Unit is way more mobile than a Infantry unit due to more MPs and "-1MP" cost when entering an enemy Hex.
• a Cavalry Unit is way more mobile than a MOT unit, due to Non-MOT movement costs and "-1MP" cost when entering an enemy Hex.

example:
Imagine 100Hexes of enemy Hexes with Clear Terrain with average Roads ahead.
Cav: 2MP per Hex -> 22MP/2MP=11Hex
MOT: 3MP per Hex -> 50MP/3MP=16.66Hex
So in those example without any Terrain or weather or river based MP cost differences, so only the "-1" in enemy Hexes for the Cavalry, the Cavalry moves about 34% less Hexes than the MOT, altough having -56% less MP to begin with.
This shows that even under good conditions the MOT loses Ground to Cav when it comes to distances that can be reached relative to the MP the Unti may have at max.
Once there's Terrain, Weather and Rivers included, the Cavalry transforms into a Porsche. Literally.

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3. Sizes XX vs X/III
It's worth noting that lowering the TOE to 50% for a Division keeps it's Divisional Hex-flipping effects and all the other good stuff, but that's what we have to deal with and since we can't change this I will stick to "Full TOE" numbers when later on talking about the Sizes of Cavalry Units.

Division:

• PRO
  • Flipping adjacent enemy Hexes
  • No additional MPs under good cirumstances
• CONTRA
  • contributes more to stacking penalties in battles
  • more CP cost (2CP)

Brigade/Regiment:

• CONTRA
  • not able to flip adjacent enemy Hexes
  • additional MPs under good cirumstances
• PRO
  • contributes less to stacking penalties in battles
  • less CP cost (1CP)

Notes:
Due to the Hex flipping of Cavalry in a Divisional (XX) size, it enjoys administrative Movement for 1 Hex during next turn, which further lowers its MP usage. This seems somewhat ridiculous, since when roaming behind enemy lines for a week, without any backup...you suddenly end up having all Traffic signs in your native language everywhere!
Another way of immersing hex flipping could be to take into consideration the long range weapon capability of Divisions, but looking at this would lead me into spheres of pro Axis bias, since Soviet Cavalry Divisions were ripped of their larger caliber Artillery historically.

Living Manual, p.385 wrote:To reflect their lack of combat support elements, brigades and regiments that move into an enemy controlled (and pending) hex must pay a movement cost of at least 3 MP per hex (terrain, weather and interdiction can all increase this to a higher number).

Replacing "brigades and regiments" with "early Soviet Cavalry Divisions" would make sense, looking at the TOE of those Divisions.

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4. Availability of Cavalry for both factions
Historicall influenced, so not much to talk about. Only one point I'd make. Which is that Soviet Cavalry Divisions get formed as historical (afaik) but additionally the player has the chance to build additional Cavalry Divisions already in 1941, which seems odd to me, especially for the high AP prize they have during 41, which may be mostly a trap for newer players or a cheesy investment for cheese enjoyers in Multiplayer.
So in the end we end up in a Situation where one side ends 1941 with ~80 Cavalry Divisions and even when losing them all being able to rebuild them for low cost (2AP) up to a cap of 13 in 1942 and 4 in 1943.
But since there is some Mechanic involved that you can build Cavalry Corps from scratch and later on break them down, you have basically a infinite availability of Cavalry Divisions.
The easiest Solution to this would be to

• not allow Cavalry Corps to be split (Programming)
  remark: activating the "NO DIVIDE option" for TOEs
• only be able to build Cavalry Corps using existing Cavalry Units (Programming)
  remark: history
• just keep the Prize for a new Cavalry Division at the amount of 1941 (8AP) (Data change)
  remark: It is questionable why a Corps costs 5AP when containing 3 Divisions (worth 3x2P) and giving massive stacking power in a Hex (which is what matters in this game) and also see point one again.
• not be allowed to build Cavalry Divisions at all (Data change)
  remark: ~80+ historical Divisions spawning in already

To explain further, the formation of Soviet Corps (any) was usually not done from scratch but rather by combining existing Units. In game that's why some/many of the smaller Units type availabilities are too large compared to their historical "independent" availability at certain points. Additional the OOB changes of Soviets concerning the Corps Structure and how it is implemented in WITE2 (HQ vs CU) further complicates/abstracts things.
Above an Example what I mean by this.
The page correctly lists 17 Corps and 87 Divisions for February 1942.
But it is not mentioning (on this page) how many of them were actually independent during this Month (which is important for WITE2).
Using this page from February 1942 for counting all Divisions (кд) which are inside a Corps (кк) you can find 51 Divisions inside a Corps Structure.
Meanwhile ingame you could end up with the ~80 Divisions you get in 1941 and build the Cavalry Corps all from scratch.

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5. Size Comparison of TOEs of both factions
Countries approchaed the usage, naming, size and TOEs of Cavalry units in many different ways. Notes:

• Soviet Divisions are small
• Axis Divisions are big
• Axis Brigades are also Big [some] ...not shown on the Screen -> Germans ~8k, Hungarians ~11k

The question which needs to be answered now is whether Soviet Divisions get Brigade status and Axis Brigades get Divisional status or whether it's already enought to only change the Soviet part so most Cavalry in the game would end up being "X".

One thing worth noting when it comes to sizes is this quote from the manual:

The size of the attacking force will also impact the number of shots taken in combat. This fire penalty occurs in combats where there is a large number of attacking units. The force value of the attacking side is calculated using the following values for each non-support, non-artillery division unit attacking:
•Corps 15
•Division 9
•Brigade 5 (3 if the brigade has less than 2,000 men)
•Regiment 3
Once the force value exceeds 28 there is a chance that elements will not get to fire during combat. Artillery elements are much less affected (and this rule only affects them at closer ranges in combat), and the chance that elements will not fire increases as the force value increases. In general though, adding more units should result in more elements firing, but a lower percentage of the total elements will generally be firing as the force increases. The CV values of the attacking units are not changed by this rule.

So as can be seen there is a difference which is acknowledged by the game between a Brigade of <2000 and a Brigade of >/=2000 men. If this could be applied to all Cavalry units and make their Hex flipping and MP consumption dependent on that, this may be by far the best solution to the sizing issue. X would stay X and XX would stay XX but depending on their Men they'd work differently.

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6. Summary:
As we see Cavalry is a highly mobile entity and also available in abundance for one side of the game. In Multiplayer it mostly serves a harassing or further, "cheesing" role and also has been the target (especially it's Divisional Hex-Flipping and low MP usage Power) in many of the Multiplayer mods.
Reducing the "Divisional" status to defined sizes like <9000 or <10000 would reduce the mobility of Soviet and Italian Cavalry mostly, but on the other side it'd also lower the CP cost needed to command those "Division named, but Brigade(X)-sized Units".
Another possible Treshold could be 5000Men, this'd only affect the Soviet Cavalry Divisions between 07/1941-2/1943.
Another treshold could be 4900Men, this'd make the new Soviet TOE 07/1942 which gets those "Divisions" of 4903 Men 10xT70 Tanks assigned.

I could lengthen the Summary to multiple pages, I'll leave it at that and hope for input by others where to "draw the line" of Divisional Status and whether to change Soviet side only or also make Axis 10k+ Brigades into Divisions. As said before the best would be for the Devs to make those "hex flipping" and "mp spent" changes in the background by adding Rules for (all) Cavalry units.

For further information also see the Links I've posted initially, there are the thoughts of many players to find.

In my mod I tried to simply set them to being Brigade for Russian side.
It ought to reduce the hex flipping business. - As I am doing an amount of other things, I do not believe it should go overboard; and ultimately that's a first step to be tested.

The other viable option, which may happen (in my mod in the making) at some point it is a production cap on Cavalry squads per turn for the Soviets.

Last but not least, and this is not moddable, I believe UNREADY units should not be able to flip hexes at all. At least that will hinder too weak units from moving across enemy territory and minimize losses in case of being isolated.

Anything said above has no real 'historical' basis and is for the concept I label 'health of the game'.

AlbertN wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:35 pmThe other viable option, which may happen (in my mod in the making) at some point it is a production cap on Cavalry squads per turn for the Soviets.

That would actually be a buff to cavalry memes, because it would be a lot easier to get cavalry with very low TOE which nonetheless can flip hexes and has very few men.

Remember, all you need to be unready as opposed to depleted is 11% TOE. So if you put a cavalry division on 50% max TOE, and set it to refit, it can get a few mortars and bring it up to 11% TOE. Meanwhile, since there would not be enough cavalry squads, they would not get reinforcements of cavalry squads.

That is how you will get 100 man or 50 man cavalry divisions going behind the lines and flipping hexes all over the place, mass suicide everywhere.

At least now there is a minimum of 500-1000 men in cavalry divisions, because if you refit on 50% max TOE you will unfortunately get some cavalry squads taking up manpower.