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Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 5:55 am
by Wiedrock
Both SMG Squads are currently 11Men. Both numbers as far as I have found TOEs were lower.
Suggetion:
- Reduce ID:798 - Submachine Gun Squad to be 10Men
- Reduce ID:815 - Submachine Gun Squad (+) to be 9Men
- Add lost Manpower as Support Squads
There's more what could be improved by adding more Squad types.
- Currently in Game.
- Soviet vanilla SMG.png (285.85 KiB) Viewed 1594 times
ID:798 - Submachine Gun Squad
Used as normal SMG Squads inside Rifle Divisions which were mostly part of a SMG Company.
It started with 10Men and
eventually became 9Men in ~1944 (not sure when exactly).
http://niehorster.org/012_ussr/42_organ ... __hqs.html
http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/RedArmy/R ... aderpg.htm
- Evolution of SMG in Infantry Divisions
- Soviet SMG Squads.png (371.14 KiB) Viewed 1594 times
ID:815 - Submachine Gun Squad (+) +ID:798 as Destants
ID:815 is used as "Rifle" Squads which were converted to fully SMG+LMG when inside Tank Brigades! Those had 9Men, not 10,
not 11.
ID:798 is used to represent the Tank Destants, which had 10Men, not 9,
not 11.
http://niehorster.org/012_ussr/44_organ ... tk-smg.htm
http://www.bayonetstrength.uk/RedArmy/R ... aderpg.htm
- A Tank brigade Example
- Tank Brigade.png (23.38 KiB) Viewed 1594 times
Further side note:
Generally when looking into all that Soviet Squad sizes, I'd suggest to re-visit the Soviet TOEs and create like ~10more Types of Soviet Squads (differetiate between Foot / Tank Brigades / Motorized-Mechanized Brigades ....and add Tank Destant Squads for the flavour!
).
Re: Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2024 10:16 am
by Wiedrock
Wiedrock wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2024 5:55 am
ID:815 - Submachine Gun Squad (+) +ID:798 as Destants
ID:815 is used as "Rifle" Squads which were converted to fully SMG+LMG when inside Tank Brigades! Those had 9Men, not 10, not 11.
ID:798 is used to represent the Tank Destants, which had 10Men, not 9, not 11.
From 31 August 1944 the TOE of a the Motor SMG Battalion 010/502 of a Tank Brigade.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=130459870
Re: Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 5:31 pm
by Wiedrock
Motrorised Rifle Battalion (Mech Brigade)
In
this thread there's a chart ~1943 which shows the SMG Squad of the Motrorised Rifle Battalion (Mech Brigade) to have 9Men (not 11). This can also be seen
here and
there.
Re: Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:18 am
by Wiedrock
Wiedrock wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2024 5:55 am
Both SMG Squads are currently 11Men. Both numbers as far as I have found TOEs were lower.
Suggetion:
Reduce ID:798 - Submachine Gun Squad to be 10Men
Reduce ID:815 - Submachine Gun Squad (+) to be 9Men
Add lost Manpower as Support Squads
There's more what could be improved by adding more Squad types.
Implemented in
WOTE in combination with reduction of
Rifle Squad 43 size 11Men→9Men.
Changeshave been automatically calculated using this
Google Docs Sheet, using normal rounding rules.
TOE/OB Change List:
Code: Select all
[id] [name] [suffix] [current support] → [new support]
2081 42 Guards Tank Corps 208 → 210
2082 43a Guards Tank Corps 222 → 224
2083 43b Guards Tank Corps 353 → 371
2084 44 Guards Tank Corps 309 → 327
2086 42a Tank Corps 121 → 123
2087 42b Tank Corps 208 → 210
2088 43a Tank Corps 221 → 223
2089 43b Tank Corps 353 → 371
2090 44 Tank Corps 307 → 325
2091 45 Tank Corps 307 → 325
2093 42b LL Tank Corps 208 → 210
2094 43a LL Guards Tank Corps 222 → 224
2101 42a Tank Brigade 31 → FALSE
2102 42b Tank Brigade 26 → FALSE
2103 43a Tank Brigade 29 → FALSE
2104 43b Tank Brigade 33 → 35
2106 42a British LL Tank Brigade 31 → FALSE
2107 42b British LL Tank Brigade 26 → FALSE
2109 42a American LL Tank Brigade 31 → FALSE
2110 42b American LL Tank Brigade 26 → FALSE
2111 43a American LL Tank Brigade 29 → FALSE
2112 43b American LL Tank Brigade 33 → 35
2114 45 Guards Heavy Tank Brigade 80 → 82
2115 42 Heavy Tank Brigade 31 → FALSE
2116 45 Heavy Tank Brigade 45 → 47
2118 42 Flame Tank Brigade 26 → FALSE
2119 44 Flame Tank Brigade 33 → 35
2121 44 Light SU Brigade 27 → 28
2122 45 Medium SU Brigade 27 → 28
2123 45 Heavy SU Brigade 27 → 28
2126 42 Destroyer Anti-Tank Brigade 50 → FALSE
2133 44 Heavy Tank Regiment 8 → FALSE
2137 43 Separate Tank Regiment 14 → FALSE
2138 44a Separate Tank Regiment 8 → FALSE
2139 44b Separate Tank Regiment 7 → FALSE
2147 42 Destroyer Anti-Tank Regiment 16 → FALSE
2153 44 Light SU Regiment 5 → FALSE
2156 44 Medium SU Regiment 5 → FALSE
2159 44 Heavy SU Regiment 5 → FALSE
2181 42 Guards Mechanized Corps 413 → 415
2182 43 Guards Mechanized Corps 361 → 363
2183 44 Guards Mechanized Corps 424 → 426
2184 45 Guards Mechanized Corps 390 → 426
2186 44 LL Guards Mechanzied Corps 424 → 426
2187 45 LL Guards Mechanized Corps 390 → 426
2189 42 Mechanized Corps 413 → 415
2190 43 Mechanized Corps 361 → 363
2191 44 Mechanized Corps 424 → 426
2192 45 Mechanized Corps 390 → 426
2194 42 LL Mechanized Corps 413 → 415
2195 43 LL Mechanized Corps 361 → 363
2196 44 LL Mechanized Corps 424 → 426
2197 45 LL Mechanized Corps 390 → 426
2202 42 Mechanized Brigade 83 → 84
2203 43 Mechanized Brigade 73 → FALSE
2207 41 Motorized Brigade 57 → FALSE
2208 42 Motorized Brigade 57 → FALSE
2248 42a Mountain Rifle Corps 850 → 855
2249 42b Mountain Rifle Corps 766 → 771
2250 42c Mountain Rifle Corps 543 → 547
2251 43 Mountain Rifle Corps 543 → 547
2252 44 Mountain Rifle Corps 474 → 564
2253 45 Mountain Rifle Corps 435 → 529
2257 41c Mountain Rifle Division 279 → 280
2258 42a Mountain Rifle Division 304 → 305
2259 42b Mountain Rifle Division 220 → 221
2260 42c Mountain Rifle Division 181 → 182
2261 43 Mountain Rifle Division 181 → 182
2262 44 Mountain Rifle Division 158 → 188
2263 45 Mountain Rifle Division 145 → 176
2265 45 Mountain Brigade 90 → 99
2267 43 Guards Airborne Corps 630 → 638
2268 44 Guards Airborne Corps 564 → 658
2269 45 Guards Airborne Corps 525 → 651
2271 43 Reduced Guards Airborne Corps 314 → 318
2272 44 Reduced Guards Airborne Corps 300 → 352
2273 45 Reduced Guards Airborne Corps 300 → 364
2275 43 Guards Airborne Division 210 → 213
2276 44 Guards Airborne Division 188 → 219
2277 45 Guards Airborne Division 175 → 217
2280 41b Airborne Brigade 33 → FALSE
2281 42 Airborne Brigade 33 → FALSE
2283 44 Airborne Brigade 58 → 70
2286 41b Naval Infantry Brigade 93 → 94
2287 42 Naval Infantry Brigade 120 → 121
2295 42 Ski Battalion [20 → 21] #was already modded - should have 8Squads - see separate Thread
2302 41a Guards Rifle Corps 766 → 770
2303 41b Guards Rifle Corps 779 → 784
2304 42a Guards Rifle Corps 723 → 729
2305 42b Guards Rifle Corps 766 → 772
2306 43 Guards Rifle Corps 630 → 638
2307 44 Guards Rifle Corps 564 → 658
2308 45 Guards Rifle Corps 525 → 651
2310 43 Reduced Guards Rifle Corps 314 → 318
2311 44 Reduced Guards Rifle Corps 300 → 352
2312 45 Reduced Guards Rifle Corps 300 → 364
2314 42a Rifle Corps 850 → 855
2315 42b Rifle Corps 766 → 771
2316 42c Rifle Corps 543 → 547
2317 43 Rifle Corps 543 → 547
2318 44 Rifle Corps 474 → 564
2319 45 Rifle Corps 435 → 529
2321 43 Reduced Rifle Corps 325 → 328
2322 44 Reduced Rifle Corps 284 → 341
2323 45 Reduced Rifle Corps 260 → 318
2326 41b Guards Rifle Division 279 → 280
2327 42a Guards Rifle Division 305 → 308
2328 42b Guards Rifle Division 220 → 223
2329 43 Guards Rifle Division 210 → 213
2330 44 Guards Rifle Division 188 → 219
2331 45 Guards Rifle Division 175 → 217
2335 41c Rifle Division 279 → 280
2336 42a Rifle Division 304 → 305
2337 42b Rifle Division 220 → 221
2338 42c Rifle Division 181 → 182
2339 43 Rifle Division 181 → 182
2340 44 Rifle Division 158 → 188
2341 45 Rifle Division 145 → 176
2348 41c Reduced Shtat RD 90 → FALSE
2349 42a Reduced Shtat RD 75 → FALSE
2350 42b Reduced Shtat RD 96 → FALSE
2351 42c Reduced Shtat RD 96 → FALSE
2352 43 Reduced Shtat RD 96 → FALSE
2359 41 Rifle Brigade 102 → 103
2360 42a Rifle Brigade 92 → 93
2361 42b Rifle Brigade 124 → 125
2362 43 Rifle Brigade 124 → 125
2363 44 Rifle Brigade 124 → 140
2587 44 Yug. Partisan Division 110 → 127
2588 44b Yug. Partisan Battalion 10 → 13
2590 45 Yug. Infantry Division 285 → 311
Re: Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Fri May 16, 2025 1:40 am
by MechFO
Re: Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Fri May 16, 2025 3:20 am
by Wiedrock
Yep, they've gone truely crazy on their SMGs.
That "b)" and the first "Beutebefehl" is interesting, I did so far only see this being mentioned in the Mountain Divisions, not mentioned in the Red Army Handbook/Companion.
I've looked in quite some of the 1943/44 "makeshift-TOEs"-painitings I could find (it's been a while) of which there were many varying versions but I can't remember seeing this SMG'ification of a whole additional Platoon being mentioned...but it's possible that I confused this additional SMG Platoon with the regular SMG Companies/Formations.
The regular addition of an SMG Company per Regiment and two for the GUARDs is normal. That's one example of the "10Men" Squads I am always referring to (which never was different ...except for maybe some "reduced strength weird-TOEs"). During that time the regular Squads had 9Men and 50/50 1LMG or 2LMG per Squad.
So replacing 1/3 of Rifle Squad 42 and 1/3 of Rifle Squad (+) ...so 1/3rd of all Platoons, with the SMG Squad (+) which I corrected to be 9Men Squads would fit pretty well I suppose. They frame it as "replacing the Rifles with SMGs", indicating that they kept their LMGs, some sources speak that it varied.
The 06/1944 TOEs have this change implemented already (during that time the SMG Squads seem to also generally been reduced to 9Men (a change I skipped for the regular SMG Squad and kept it at 10Men), so it'd only be a thing for the 12/42+06/43 TOEs (Guards is for whatever reason missing the 06/43 Update-date).
Re: Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 8:47 am
by Wiedrock
The December TOE for the regular Division requested 727 SMGs.
At some point in early 1943 it must have been supposedly increased to 1450.
Then further increased to 2110 on May 22nd 1943.
Guards Divisions always +300 (+some) due to having 2 SMG Companies per Regiment.
Following some examples I could find:
02.08.1943: 379 Rifle Division, each Regiment requiring 678 SMGs, the total Division requiring 2143 SMGs.
06.07.1943: Guards Regiment TOE needs 313 (108Squads with 1 SMG + 2xSMG Companies with 100SMG each = 308), have is 498.
06.06.1943: 24th Guards Division 1462
So the increase of SMG Squads needs to already take place in mid 1943 (06/1943 TOE - Guard TOE is missing at this date completely in game).
LMGs seem to be lacking behind a little (mostly because the TOEs are often "reduced"), I think using the corrected 9Men SMG (+) 9Men with one LMG and 8SMG seems the easiest solution as to also have a clear distinction between Line Infantry (9Men) and the SMG Companies (10Men [10SMG]). Following an example (it's not an 100% definitive thing) where Germans tried to boil down a Soviet strength report. It indicates first Company completely with LMGs+SMGs and the usual/expected one of three Platoons LMG+SMGs only in the second and third Company. So in this case the Squads definitely kept their LMGs.
- SMG Squad+_RH_2_2517_0220.jpg (265.41 KiB) Viewed 1048 times
Re: Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2025 8:29 pm
by Wiedrock
Found numbers on the Orders which caused the increase of SMGs in May 1943.
This page contains Order #46175 which re-equips a Platoon per Company with MPs.
Re: Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2025 9:02 pm
by Tcao
There is a similar discussion on combat mission forum. Hopefully that helps
https://community.battlefront.com/topic ... mpany-oob/
Re: Soviet SMG Squad sizes [ID:798, ID:815]
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2025 2:26 pm
by Wiedrock
Thanks, every input is worth looking into, I've also been looking through some Russian speaking forums and the confusion about many things seem to be the same everywhere.
The Thread you found also has a further link towards axishistory forums, also a nice spot to find info. Will look into this.
