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Posted: **Thu Jan 18, 2024 5:34 pm**

The ID44 was intended to achieve a further reduction in manpower per Division. Currently in game the Manpower and the Support Elements for this Divisional TOEs stay at about the same as the TOEs before have.
From what I see, each if those four '44 TOEs [OB:470, OB:471, OB:472, OB:473] should have at least about 55 Support Squads less, to correct the Manpower to the historic'ish numbers.
Here the author of bayonetstrength lists ID44 as having "12,336".
Here Niehorster lists slightly different numbers of "12,772".
Here the author (mostly using main sources from NARA rolls and afaik not changing any numbers (so just digitizing/translating them)) lists "12 407".
In game the Divisions as we see have around 13870 Men, so taking the largest number 12772-13870=-1098 -> /20=54.9->55Support Squads less, at least. Taking the average of this or the smallest number of Men would mean even more reduction in Support Squads.

Posted: **Thu Jan 18, 2024 8:13 pm**

Also see: https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/1

Posted: **Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:46 pm**

The TOEs are also all missing Panzerschreck Squads.
As can be seen here in this comparison, a ID44 Regiment has 42 Panzerschrecks of which 6 are Reserve, so 36.
This gives 36x3=108 Panzerschreck Squads.

: https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/nodes/5622#page/114/mode/inspect/zoom/8; ID44_Panzerschreck-per-Regiment.png (1.04 MiB) Viewed 1659 times

Side Note: Similar it looks for the VGD TOE which doesn't use 54 Panzerschreck Squads x 3=162 but instead uses 72 or 54 (there are two TOEs). But I'll keep this Thread about ID44 as good as I can.

Further you can see the 36 Squads in this overview:

: https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/nodes/14474#page/17/mode/inspect/zoom/5; ID44_Panzerschreck.png (780.2 KiB) Viewed 1659 times

Meanwhile in game all 4 TOES look like this in regards to the Panzerschrecks:

: ID44_Type1_TOE.png (131.01 KiB) Viewed 1659 times

Posted: **Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:06 pm**

The Pioneers are 36 Squads. But should be (3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co)+(6Sq x 3Reg)=27+18=45
https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn130n1dez43.htm
The Bicycle Squads are 48 Squads. But should be (3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co)+(3Sq x 3Reg)=27+9=36
Unless there is some Men being counted to those which I can't see.
https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn149n1mai44.htm (3Squads x 3Pl x 3Co)
+ the Link below the Pioniers (3 Squads per Regiment)
As mentioned 108 Panzerschreck Teams
As mentioned about 12.8k Men

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2024 2:27 am**

Wiedrock wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:06 pm [*]The Bicycle Squads are 48 Squads. But should be (3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co)+(3Sq x 3Reg)=27+9=36
Unless there is some Men being counted to those which I can't see.

12 or 13 lmg are 4 squad organisations.

As a general note, as far as I know there were at least 2 different Div 44 organisations. An initial one which was bigger and a sort of updated nA, then a shortened version which became official. So expect to find different numbers.

Then of course also the question of how to handle the Feldersatz Battalion. A formed unit with reduced infantry TOE that was often used on the frontlines, I don't think it is included in the Rifle Squad totals.

Posted: **Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:48 am**

MechFO wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 2:27 am
Wiedrock wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:06 pm [*]The Bicycle Squads are 48 Squads. But should be (3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co)+(3Sq x 3Reg)=27+9=36
Unless there is some Men being counted to those which I can't see.

12 or 13 lmg are 4 squad organisations.

As a general note, as far as I know there were at least 2 different Div 44 organisations. An initial one which was bigger and a sort of updated nA, then a shortened version which became official. So expect to find different numbers.

12Squad was my initial thought as well, then I saw the KSTNs using 3x3 + 3Reserve + 1Collumn LMGs...

...then further looking for older Bicycle KSTNs and I not have seen any being a 4Squad Platoon setup...will add if I see any.
Edit: From this Document (1.May 1944 / 19.July 1944), it starts page 52.

: Bicycle_9Squads.png (1.01 MiB) Viewed 1600 times

And yes there are obviously a bazillion of different TOEs, like always

In particular the AT Battalion was dedicated being different setups possible. (its in the Document)
I first only looked at the manpower assuming everything else would have been accounted for "correctly" and so there already I found like 4 different manpower calculations averaging around 12.6k. But none at 13.8k as currently ingame.
But I found that the Pioneers of the Regiments and the Panzerschrecks have either all been missed in most of the later TOEs or I miss the proper Sources. But in return since Manpower was calculated with those Squads it would even be lower if they are not present.

MechFO wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 2:27 am Then of course also the question of how to handle the Feldersatz Battalion. A formed unit with reduced infantry TOE that was often used on the frontlines, I don't think it is included in the Rifle Squad totals.

Those replacement Battalions are Support in the game.

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:36 am**

Here again the 12407 Men.
Found in: BArch RH 2/1285
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio ... c94e78592/

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:55 am**

Here the 12769 Men. (~spring 44)
Found in: BArch RH 2/1283
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio ... 48f014b24/

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 12:26 pm**

Here you can see the KSNTs which were being used.
Found in: BArch RH 2/1283
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio ... 48f014b24/

Pioneers in Regiment HQ:
Squads: https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn130n1apr44.htm
Remains 6 Squads per Regiment, so in total 3Reg x 6Sq = 18Sq + 27Sq(Pioneer Battalion) = 45Sq Pioneers

Füsilier Battalion:
1xCo - Bicycle: https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn149n1mai44.htm
2xCo - on Foot: https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn131n1dez43.htm
Remains 3Squads per Platoon and 3Platoons per Company. The "Surplus LMGs" are reserve.

Panzerschreck Squads:
Squads: https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn154b1feb44.htm
Remains 6times this KSTN (2per Regiment), which gives 6Pl x 3Sq x 6PzB = 108PzB

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:41 pm**

Wiedrock wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:48 am
MechFO wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 2:27 am
Wiedrock wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:06 pm [*]The Bicycle Squads are 48 Squads. But should be (3Sq x 3Pl x 3Co)+(3Sq x 3Reg)=27+9=36
Unless there is some Men being counted to those which I can't see.

12 or 13 lmg are 4 squad organisations.

As a general note, as far as I know there were at least 2 different Div 44 organisations. An initial one which was bigger and a sort of updated nA, then a shortened version which became official. So expect to find different numbers.
12Squad was my initial thought as well, then I saw the KSTNs using 3x3 + 3Reserve + 1Collumn LMGs...
...then further looking for older Bicycle KSTNs and I not have seen any being a 4Squad Platoon setup...will add if I see any.
Edit: From this Document (1.May 1944 / 19.July 1944), it starts page 52.
Bicycle_9Squads.png

And yes there are obviously a bazillion of different TOEs, like always In particular the AT Battalion was dedicated being different setups possible. (its in the Document)
I first only looked at the manpower assuming everything else would have been accounted for "correctly" and so there already I found like 4 different manpower calculations averaging around 12.6k. But none at 13.8k as currently ingame.
But I found that the Pioneers of the Regiments and the Panzerschrecks have either all been missed in most of the later TOEs or I miss the proper Sources. But in return since Manpower was calculated with those Squads it would even be lower if they are not present.

You are right, I thought the below from late 43 was a 4 squad organization as well but it's 6 reserve lmg + 1 in company supply train instead.

So this was shortened to 3+1 with Div 44 and then done away with Div45.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

Though it also means that even at 50% strength, the company had it's "full" LMG strength.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

Wiedrock wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:48 am
MechFO wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2024 2:27 am Then of course also the question of how to handle the Feldersatz Battalion. A formed unit with reduced infantry TOE that was often used on the frontlines, I don't think it is included in the Rifle Squad totals.
Those replacement Battalions are Support in the game.

Which is IMO wrong. See your post above, included in the infantry total, and also given it's own Divisional area of responsibility in various Divisional maps I've seen.

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:59 pm**

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:41 pm You are right, I thought the below from late 43 was a 4 squad organization as well but it's 6 reserve lmg + 1 in company supply train instead. So this was shortened to 3+1 with Div 44 and then done away with Div45.

Yep, it's somewhat annoying that some charts show "all" LMGs and some show "manned" LMGs.

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:41 pm Though it also means that even at 50% strength, the company had it's "full" LMG strength.

German "Fighters numbers" were not 30% of whole strength like in game. Those Reserve LMGs were most likely being used by some of the "(ingame) Support" personell.

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:41 pm Which is IMO wrong. See your post above, included in the infantry total, and also given it's own Divisional area of responsibility in various Divisional maps I've seen.

Well, Axis has:

Living Manual 1.24 (V1.03.09), p.343 wrote: For the Axis side, if losses to the rest of the unit result in excess support squads, some may be converted to rifle squad ground elements or returned to the manpower pool during the replacement phase[.]
[Picture]
This German infantry regiment has been heavily defeated in a
localised Soviet offensive. As it only has 1 undamaged rifle squad, it
is possible that some of its support squads will be converted in the
next turn.

Living Manual 1.24 (V1.03.09), p.481f wrote: 26.1.5. Excess Support Squad Ground Elements
Starting in October 1942 Axis units can use ready support squads to “repair” damaged elements. Damaged rifle and motorized rifle squads can be repaired, 10 at a time in a unit. In this case half of the men in the damaged squads are put in the disabled pool.
Enough support squads (2 or 3) are removed to replace these disabled men. Any excess men remaining are placed in the pool.
As an example, if a the squads require 10 men to be fixed, then 10 damaged squads
would become ready, 50 men would go to the disabled pool, 3 support squads would
be removed from the unit, and 10 men would be placed in the pool.

If this actually works. Noone knows, I've seen Divisions with damaged Elements and surplus in Support nor getting any Squad repaired, nor new Squads. Eventually this is caused by a lack of Manpower tho, which it shouldn't be since the Manpower is already in the Division....so....well, let's leave it at that.

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 7:41 pm**

Wiedrock wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:59 pm
MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:41 pm Though it also means that even at 50% strength, the company had it's "full" LMG strength.
German "Fighters numbers" were not 30% of whole strength like in game. Those Reserve LMGs were most likely being used by some of the "(ingame) Support" personell.

As I understand it those would be manned by normal Riflemen (everybody was supposed to be LMG trained) in static positions in the defence. While on the attack, or the Squads/Platoons that were for the local counterattacks, needed to be more mobile and would keep only the one LMG, as they were otherwise not mobile enough.

Wiedrock wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:59 pm 26.1.5. Excess Support Squad Ground Elements
Starting in October 1942 Axis units can use ready support squads to “repair” damaged elements. Damaged rifle and motorized rifle squads can be repaired, 10 at a time in a unit. In this case half of the men in the damaged squads are put in the disabled pool.
Enough support squads (2 or 3) are removed to replace these disabled men. Any excess men remaining are placed in the pool.
As an example, if a the squads require 10 men to be fixed, then 10 damaged squads
would become ready, 50 men would go to the disabled pool, 3 support squads would
be removed from the unit, and 10 men would be placed in the pool.

That should cover the combing out of anybody and everybody, down to and including Battalion and Regimental Staff, as emergency infantry, but this happened already in a big way in 1941, at the very latest with the Winter Offensive. Plenty of orders, experience, reports etc. on this.

Posted: **Sat Jan 20, 2024 7:53 pm**

MechFO wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 7:41 pm That should cover the combing out of anybody and everybody, down to and including Battalion and Regimental Staff, as emergency infantry, but this happened already in a big way in 1941, at the very latest with the Winter Offensive. Plenty of orders, experience, reports etc. on this.

I encourage you to create a Q&(hopefully)A with the Devs about this, I am also wondering why this doesn't happen when this replacement system was already in place before.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:55 am**

Be careful with your panzershreck accountability. Each Regiment was authorized a Panzerzerstoerer Company that had a total of 36 PzS Firing Teams (3 man team w/Panzerschrek) with an additional 18 launchers (not teams) in supply reserve. Number of Panzerschreks does not equal a Panzerschrek squad.

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:55 am**

Great_Ajax wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:55 am Be careful with your panzershreck accountability. Each Regiment was authorized a Panzerzerstoerer Company that had a total of 36 PzS Firing Teams (3 man team w/Panzerschrek) with an additional 18 launchers (not teams) in supply reserve. Number of Panzerschreks does not equal a Panzerschrek squad.

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Thanks for your reply.
Yes, "Regiment was authorized a Panzerzerstoerer Company" so 1 Company per Regiment, that we are on the same numer.
And if you say they have had "36 PzS Firing Teams" we are also on the same number, so 3Reg x 36Sq = 108Sq (with PzS).
I guess you got the 3Man Squad from other KSTNs (like 154V -> ID45), don't ask me how/why one KSNT has a 3man Squad and one has a 2man Squad, but that's what it is.

Below again the link to the KSTN which is stated there for the ID44 (154b).
(WWIIdaybyday links you need to do the "rightclick-copy-link thingy"...mostly)

Wiedrock wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 12:26 pm Panzerschreck Squads:
Squads: https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn154b1feb44.htm
Remains 6times this KSTN (2per Regiment), which gives 6Pl x 3Sq x 6PzB = 108PzB

This is KSTN 154b. (I couldn't find the original yet).
Here you can easily access the same numbers online (my Source I found in BArch [as mentioned above]).

: KSTN 154b_PzZstZug.png (507.3 KiB) Viewed 1446 times

If you say "with an additional 18 launchers (not teams) in supply reserve" we are also on the same page (looking at some documents which actually name this Reserve PzS's, but often they are not counted/named. If they are named/counted, the Regiment would have had 42 PzS, if they are not counted, then the Regiment is printed with having 36 PzS.
So the Division total is either stated as being 108 ACTIVE or 108ACTIVE+18RESERVE, but the RESERVE numbers are rarely included in listings, unless the accountant rly knew what he/she was doing and made a total SUM.

: BArch RH 2/1283 page 140 (edited to have the collumns named); PzB_sum.jpg (87.2 KiB) Viewed 1446 times

All I can say that I am 99.9% sure that this 108 are teams. Even IF you'd substract the (theoretical) 18 Reserve PzS from 108 you'd still get 90 and not 54 which is currently in game. But as stated before the Reserve stocks are not accounted for in almost all of the Documents (for the ID44).

EDIT: Now that being said, I think I know where the 54 may come from. I so far couldn't find the original 154b, but I have at least the last page for the 154c (1.8.1944), which I've found in NARA T-78 R-391. 154c is a "combined KSTN", while the ID44 uses "partial KSTNs" (T.E.).
This is a setup of one Company, 2 Panzerzerstörer Platoons (18PzS each) and additional 18PzS in Reserve.
This adds up to 54PzS (for one Regiment). If you'd assume this being the KSTN used we would still be getting 2Plx18PzSx3Reg=108PzS +additional 3x18Reserve (54).
Later on there were pure Panzerzerstörer Companies, which had 3 Platoons of 18 Squads/PzS and additional 18 PzS as Reserve (see VGD ...and others).

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:34 pm**

I concur with your numbers. There should be 36 Teams per Regiment, not 18 as there was a second group.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:40 pm**

Great_Ajax wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 1:34 pm I concur with your numbers. There should be 36 Teams per Regiment, not 18 as there was a second group.

It may be similarly the case for all the other TOEs of that period/time (basically after changing from PzB to PzS), some are included in this dossier (like Jäger44, Geb44 and more). Simiar results can be seen in the VGD TOEs and so on.

Posted: **Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:54 pm**

Wiedrock wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:55 am
Great_Ajax wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 2:55 am Be careful with your panzershreck accountability. Each Regiment was authorized a Panzerzerstoerer Company that had a total of 36 PzS Firing Teams (3 man team w/Panzerschrek) with an additional 18 launchers (not teams) in supply reserve. Number of Panzerschreks does not equal a Panzerschrek squad.

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/
Thanks for your reply.
Yes, "Regiment was authorized a Panzerzerstoerer Company" so 1 Company per Regiment, that we are on the same numer.
And if you say they have had "36 PzS Firing Teams" we are also on the same number, so 3Reg x 36Sq = 108Sq (with PzS).
I guess you got the 3Man Squad from other KSTNs (like 154V -> ID45), don't ask me how/why one KSNT has a 3man Squad and one has a 2man Squad, but that's what it is.

154V is also 2 men teams, this never changed.Here are the early guidelines for Panzer Zerstörer Bat. (Which I think we are missing.)

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/5

Wiedrock wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 11:55 am Below again the link to the KSTN which is stated there for the ID44 (154b).
(WWIIdaybyday links you need to do the "rightclick-copy-link thingy"...mostly)
Wiedrock wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 12:26 pm Panzerschreck Squads:
Squads: https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn154b1feb44.htm
Remains 6times this KSTN (2per Regiment), which gives 6Pl x 3Sq x 6PzB = 108PzB
This is KSTN 154b. (I couldn't find the original yet).
Here you can easily access the same numbers online (my Source I found in BArch [as mentioned above]).
KSTN 154b_PzZstZug.png
If you say "with an additional 18 launchers (not teams) in supply reserve" we are also on the same page (looking at some documents which actually name this Reserve PzS's, but often they are not counted/named. If they are named/counted, the Regiment would have had 42 PzS, if they are not counted, then the Regiment is printed with having 36 PzS.
So the Division total is either stated as being 108 ACTIVE or 108ACTIVE+18RESERVE, but the RESERVE numbers are rarely included in listings, unless the accountant rly knew what he/she was doing and made a total SUM.
PzB_sum.jpg
All I can say that I am 99.9% sure that this 108 are teams. Even IF you'd substract the (theoretical) 18 Reserve PzS from 108 you'd still get 90 and not 54 which is currently in game. But as stated before the Reserve stocks are not accounted for in almost all of the Documents (for the ID44).

EDIT: Now that being said, I think I know where the 54 may come from. I so far couldn't find the original 154b, but I have at least the last page for the 154c (1.8.1944), which I've found in NARA T-78 R-391. 154c is a "combined KSTN", while the ID44 uses "partial KSTNs" (T.E.).
This is a setup of one Company, 2 Panzerzerstörer Platoons (18PzS each) and additional 18PzS in Reserve.
This adds up to 54PzS (for one Regiment). If you'd assume this being the KSTN used we would still be getting 2Plx18PzSx3Reg=108PzS +additional 3x18Reserve (54).
Later on there were pure Panzerzerstörer Companies, which had 3 Platoons of 18 Squads/PzS and additional 18 PzS as Reserve (see VGD ...and others).

154b
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

Also don't forget the seperate Regiments like the Sturmregiment.

Posted: **Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:40 pm**

MechFO wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:54 pm 154V is also 2 men teams, this never changed.Here are the early guidelines for Panzer Zerstörer Bat. (Which I think we are missing.)

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/5

Awesome.

Posted: **Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:42 am**

reworked.

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German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else

Re: German Infantry Division 44 - Manpower & Support Squads & everything else