German Infantry Division 45 [OB:475] - Weapons and Manpower Issues

[Wiedrock]

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SEE CURRENT (Final) VERSION WOTE v02 IN THIS POST


See here: https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... rid/zoom/1

Some Issues with the ID45 TOE. Some.

Note: The shown/fixed TOE change was done in vanilla game (no Squad sizes were edited).

[Wiedrock]

The current TOE is

• only using the "German Manpower" and missing HIWIs.
  Current: 11213
  IRL: 11909
  Note:

  

  ID45_Manpower.png (84.62 KiB) Viewed 1275 times

• missing 90 Panzerschreck Squads (PzB).
  Current: 72
  IRL: 3Reg x 1Co x 3Plat x 3Sq x 6SubSqu = 162
  Note: The 72 was most likely created by using the 72 PzB in a Regiment, but those are comprised of 18 Reserve + 54 in Squads. This is wrong for 2 reasons.
  1. it is using the Reserve Guns
  2. it has been forgotten to multiply it by 3 (3 Regiments with 72 PzB -> x3=216 -> -18x3=162
• missing 9x Pioneer Squad
  Current: 36
  IRL: 45
  Note: See initial Post.
  Each Regiment had 6 Squads of Engineers.

  

  ID45_pioniere.png.png (211.95 KiB) Viewed 1253 times

• missing 18x 81mm Mortar
  Current: 30
  IRL: 48
  Note: See initial Post.
• needs towed Flak instead of SP Flak
  Current: 9 SP Flak
  IRL: 9 Flak towed
  Note: See next picture or initial Post.
• missing 12x leIG18
  Current: 16
  IRL: 28
  Note:

  

  ID45_leIG18.png (621.11 KiB) Viewed 799 times

• missing 4x sFH18
  Current: 8
  IRL: 12
  Note:

  

  ID45_sFH18.png (48.33 KiB) Viewed 1275 times

[Wiedrock]

Corrected the Pioneer number, encounetred (at least) the same Pioneer and Panzerschreck issue in the ID44 TOE, and similar stuff is going on in the VGD TOEs.

[MechFO]

See here: https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... rid/zoom/1

Some Issues with the ID45 TOE. Some.

ID45_Overview.png

You missed a few. You can just take the totals on the top line.

[Wiedrock]

See here: https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... rid/zoom/1

Some Issues with the ID45 TOE. Some.

ID45_Overview.png

You missed a few. You can just take the totals on the top line.

Topline includes the Feldersatz Battalion, that's Support.
I guess that's why German "surplus Support Squads can convert to become Rifle Squads during next turns Logistic".

[Wiedrock]

Adjusted Posts 1 and 2.

• Fixed false SP Flak for towed Flak.
• Added Sturm Squad (-) [only STG44] and adjusted number of Squads

[Denniss]

I'd eliminate the 75mm light Art - this was supposed to be the Pak 40 in its artillery variant that barely materialized. Section mentions replacement of 6x 75mm FK by 4x 105mm leFH.
Germany has no production of this gun class other than captured russian guns so this would actually improve the div's capabilities

[Wiedrock]

Yes this is an odd circumstance, the leIH alternative is also mentioned by the "x)" note in the overview.
In GC41 with more time to capture and convert Light Artillery, you end up with plenty in stocks, (just recently someone complained about it in discord, wanting to be able to use them). Since barely any TOE uses them, mostly the static division ones and such.

[Denniss]

I missed the in-production 75mm mountain gun which is used by mountain units, possible Jäger and Fallschim units. Also LW Field Divs should use them.

[Wiedrock]

I missed the in-production 75mm mountain gun which is used by mountain units, possible Jäger and Fallschim units. Also LW Field Divs should use them.

And if it's still too little you need to add the "Leichteschütz" used (in historic TOEs) by FSJ and CAV. Altough, they'd need their own category I guess xD.
https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Wa ... chutze.htm

[Denniss]

manpower strength for ID 45 by 10 December 44 = 11909
+ 30 men if the 75mm FKs are replaced by 105mm Hows

https://web.archive.org/web/20240515035 ... rength.pdf

[Wiedrock]

manpower strength for ID 45 by 10 December 44 = 11909
+ 30 men if the 75mm FKs are replaced by 105mm Hows

https://web.archive.org/web/20240515035 ... rength.pdf

I see, nice find, yes the manpower I have the same.
If tyronec tells us in his AAR how his current Artillery/Light Artillery Pools look like one may rather take the 105mm if the 75mm is too little left over. I guess there was a reason why "for the time being" the 105mm were used.

[Denniss]

in my last AI testrun german pool had about 7k 105mm Hows and about 400 75-76mm guns by 1/45. By 5/45 the 75-76mm guns were below 100 while the 105 were at 6.7k

[Wiedrock]

The Begleit Platoon needs to be added since they are included in the manpower calculations (thanks to MECHFO for pointing that out).

THIS POST's content has been updated to include the Begleit Platoon, see: this Post.

1. First TOEs [OB:475] (was main focus of this Thread) version is alreadygood right now. Thanks to Denniss for his work and ideas on that.
   Just two small changes done.
   One issue lies in the composition of the number of Squads (It should use regular "Rifle Squad 43" + "Sturm Squad (-)" + "Sturm Squad").
   Additionally, due to the historic KSTN improvement which brought the Rifle Grenades of the Squads into a separate team in the Platoon HQ with 3 Men, there are 100Men missing as fighters, since they are suddenly "Support" in game (7.4% of Line Infantry gets lost by this).
   
   It should have per Company (KSTN 131V 01.11.1944):
   • 1st/2nd = "Sturm" Platoons together:
     4x"Sturm Squad (-)" [ID:83] [8Men, 8xStG44]
     2x"Sturm Squad" [ID:478] [8Men, 2xLMG, 6xStG44]
     ___new___(2x"Rifle Grenade Team" [ID:631] newly added)
   • 3rd Platoon
     3x"Rifle Squad 43" [ID:82] [9Men, (already has the Rifle Grandes inside the Squad)]
   So in total:
   3Rgt x 2Btl x 3Co x ....
   4x"Sturm Squad (-)" = 72Squads
   2x"Sturm Squad" = 36Squads
   ___new___(2x"Rifle Grenade Team" = 36Squads) - this is a new Squad not available to the Devs.
   3x"Rifle Squad 43" = 54Squads
   So a total of 72+36+54 = 162Squads (Line Infantry) (+36 Rifle Grenade Teams)
   
   The Changes are highlighted in the attached picture. they can easily be applied even without adding the 36x "Rifle Grenade Teams". The exact same issue (using 108+54 Squads insteadof 72+54+36 Squads) also exists with the Volksgrenadier TOEs.
   

   ---

2. The second one [OB:476] you can see the changes in the attached picture. There were several Divisions being excluded from using the general "ID45" TOE, a list of them is also attached. But the TOE is an upgrade to 3 of 4 (in 2 paths) of all of 1944 TOEs, so applied to many more units. This also includes all the "named Divisions" ("Hamburg", et cetera) which clearly show the small (sometiems even smaller) infantry squad setup. So not sure what this "bigger" Version was ever relying on when it was created. It may have been the normal oversight that Platoons were changed from 4 to 3 Squads inside KSTNs already in 1943 (which is also wrong in all of ID44 1944 TOEs ...and maybe even late 1943 ones).
   The Usage for this TOE may have been to have some Equipment variance, now it is mostly used to differentiate between STG44 yes/no and delayed Upgrade.

Interesting is the 1st Infantry Division which may have been the last Infantry Division with 3 Battalions/Regiment during this engame times (not sure about the "Sondergliederungen" tho).

As pointed out also in the picture (and above):
Already in 1943 changes were made from 4Squads/Platoon towards 3Squads.
Latest at autumn/end of 1943 this was applied to all new KSTNs for regular Divisions (static/security may vary).
So it is unlikely that in 1945 suddenly there would be a plethora of Divisions back to a 4x.
Correct me if proven otherwise! ...maybe for once they became more manpower efficient .

[MechFO]

Version for WOTE v02.

1. First TOEs [OB:475] (was main focus of this Thread) version is alreadygood right now. Thanks to Denniss for his work and ideas on that.
   Just two small changes done.
   One issue lies in the composition of the number of Squads (It should use regular "Rifle Squad 43" + "Sturm Squad (-)" + "Sturm Squad").
   Additionally, due to the historic KSTN improvement which brought the Rifle Grenades of the Squads into a separate team in the Platoon HQ with 3 Men, there are 100Men missing as fighters, since they are suddenly "Support" in game (7.4% of Line Infantry gets lost by this).
   
   It should have per Company (KSTN 131V 01.11.1944):
   • 1st/2nd = "Sturm" Platoons together:
     4x"Sturm Squad (-)" [ID:83] [8Men, 8xStG44]
     2x"Sturm Squad" [ID:478] [8Men, 2xLMG, 6xStG44]
     ___new___(2x"Rifle Grenade Team" [ID:631] newly added)
   • 3rd Platoon
     3x"Rifle Squad 43" [ID:82] [9Men, (already has the Rifle Grandes inside the Squad)]
   So in total:
   3Rgt x 2Btl x 3Co x ....
   4x"Sturm Squad (-)" = 72Squads
   2x"Sturm Squad" = 36Squads
   ___new___(2x"Rifle Grenade Team" = 36Squads) - this is a new Squad not available to the Devs.
   3x"Rifle Squad 43" = 54Squads
   So a total of 72+36+54 = 162Squads (Line Infantry) (+36 Rifle Grenade Teams)
   
   The Changes are highlighted in the attached picture. they can easily be applied even without adding the 36x "Rifle Grenade Teams". The exact same issue (using 108+54 Squads insteadof 72+54+36 Squads) also exists with the Volksgrenadier TOEs.

You are missing the the StuG Begleitzug.

NARA T78 Roll 397 pages 27 to 31

Order to form 20.10.44

1 Of
5 Uof
55 Man (davon 12 Pio)

58 MPi44 , 3 Gewehre, lots of PzF

Organisation depending on mission but in example a Inf Squad consisted of 14 men including 3 Pio.

[MechFO]

General note

NARA T78 Roll 399 has a plethora of manpower comparisons between various division organisations going back to 41. Sometimes down to Bat level.

[Wiedrock]

General note

NARA T78 Roll 399 has a plethora of manpower comparisons between various division organisations going back to 41. Sometimes down to Bat level.

Nice, at a glance I've got like 80-90% already through the German Archives but it may fill some gaps.

You are missing the the StuG Begleitzug.

NARA T78 Roll 397 pages 27 to 31

Order to form 20.10.44

1 Of
5 Uof
55 Man (davon 12 Pio)

58 MPi44 , 3 Gewehre, lots of PzF

Organisation depending on mission but in example a Inf Squad consisted of 14 men including 3 Pio.

The ones inside normal Divisions were set up "auf dem Kommandowege", which means they were scrapped from the regular parts of the Division. They were supposed to be comprised of the best/most experience soldiers of the Division.

[MechFO]

General note

NARA T78 Roll 399 has a plethora of manpower comparisons between various division organisations going back to 41. Sometimes down to Bat level.

Nice, at a glance I've got like 80-90% already through the German Archives but it may fill some gaps.

You are missing the the StuG Begleitzug.

NARA T78 Roll 397 pages 27 to 31

Order to form 20.10.44

1 Of
5 Uof
55 Man (davon 12 Pio)

58 MPi44 , 3 Gewehre, lots of PzF

Organisation depending on mission but in example a Inf Squad consisted of 14 men including 3 Pio.

The ones inside normal Divisions were set up "auf dem Kommandowege", which means they were scrapped from the regular parts of the Division. They were supposed to be comprised of the best/most experience soldiers of the Division.

These were etatisiert with Division 45 as can be seen in the first post, so should be added to the totals for that organisation.

[Wiedrock]

These were etatisiert with Division 45 as can be seen in the first post, so should be added to the totals for that organisation.

I see. They are added to the totals. But they are not mentioned in the ID45 rules of engagement in any way and in the accounting chart they refer to this exact document from October, ...which states that the "Etatisierung" is intended.

ID45_Begleit.png (515.35 KiB) Viewed 489 times

Meanwhile there are no new TOEs or notes for Gebirgs-/Jäger-/Volksgrenadier-Divisions which were similarly supposed to create the Begleit Platoon from the Division's personell to apply them "actually".
Here an example of 2 Divisions I've at hand. Berlin shows the 563 but does not visualize the Begleit Platoon.
Döberitz the math fits about right. ...so but what about Gebirgs-/Jäger-/Volksgrenadier-Divisions then???

Begleit_example.png (1.1 MiB) Viewed 489 times

[MechFO]

These were etatisiert with Division 45 as can be seen in the first post, so should be added to the totals for that organisation.

I see. They are added to the totals. But they are not mentioned in the ID45 rules of engagement in any way and in the accounting chart they refer to this exact document from October, ...which states that the "Etatisierung" is intended.
ID45_Begleit.png
Meanwhile there are no new TOEs or notes for Gebirgs-/Jäger-/Volksgrenadier-Divisions which were similarly supposed to create the Begleit Platoon from the Division's personell to apply them "actually".
Here an example of 2 Divisions I've at hand. Berlin shows the 563 but does not visualize the Begleit Platoon.
Döberitz the math fits about right. ...so but what about Gebirgs-/Jäger-/Volksgrenadier-Divisions then???
Begleit_example.png

It seems one needs to look for January 45 and later.

Not finding VG etc. from that time. The Begleitzüge do do show up in both the Kampfgruppe Panzer Div 45 and the Jagd Panzer Brigade 104.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8