Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:18 am**

Can shells and bombs have dud rates like TT? I assume they can?? I tested it and its seems they can...

Been doing tons of reading and video watching and its faitr to say a few shells and a few bombs could have a dud rate added - just a bit?

do dud rate have to follow 5 , 10 , 15 etc or can they be any number seems like designers used a rounding up I wonder if that was hard coded in anyway?

Just about to publish my uber updated mod

If they can and there is any suggestions for bombs of shells that should have a dud rate would be happy to consider.
Would a blanket 1-8% - dud rate on all bombs and some shells be realistic?

I would imagine AP Bombs? May have a slightly higher dud rate than GP?
Say 3% on GP and 5% on AP?

Help welcome.

Cav

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:10 pm**

I've experimented with a 10 % dud rate on bombs in the past. Probably too high but if I recall you do get a message during combat stating that they failed to explode much like you do with dud torpedoes.

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:18 pm**

Thanks for coming back... at least we agree it does work...I agree 10% would be too high. I was not thinking of 10% for anything actually.

I was hoping the game will work with small % as some devices cannot work if % or value is set very low it seemed.

I was thinking of the above values.

In the UK we find loads of unexploded bombs - we had one only 10 miles from us a couple of weeks ago - it was quite common and they find them all the time. But the % will be set very low... nothing in life or AE should be certain.

yes you get a message says hit but no explosion. When it hits and detonates it mentions the ordnance that it is.

What stuff did you set your dud rate for?

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:19 pm**

5% is about as high as I would go....GP

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:21 pm**

Yep that seem about right. But what about the 6 inch US gun and the 5 inch 38/ semi automatic I read these guns were and are very effective but had high dud rates... what is high say 5% ,8 %?

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:22 pm**

Also read that about 10% of the 800 kg used at PH failed to explode and just went right through??

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:22 pm**

Cavalry Corp wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:18 pm What stuff did you set your dud rate for?

Since it was an experiment just the Allied 500 lb. bomb as that is about the most common Allied air dropped ordinance. I picked 10% to give Japan a bit more of a survival chance than for anything else.

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:28 pm**

Cavalry Corp wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:22 pm Also read that about 10% of the 800 kg used at PH failed to explode and just went right through??

Yes, The Type 99 No. 80 Mk 5 made from converted 16 in. shells had a high dud rate, due to weaknesses in the bomb case introduced during the remanufacturing process and poor-quality control with the explosive fill. Of those that scored hits at Pearl Harbor, 20% failed to explode and another 40% yielded only low order explosions and one went straight through the repair ship Vestal and exploded on the harbor bottom.

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:34 pm**

ok tks

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:57 pm**

Well, in, Germany thousands of WW2 UXO cases are being reported each year - shells, grenades, mines among them but also hundreds of bombs.

Estimates on bomb dud rates run from 5% to 20% depending on the type of bomb and fuse.

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:16 pm**

I am sure... you had a rougher end...
A 250kilo bomb was found in a garden in Plymouth a week ago... it caused chaos round here, dropped in April 1941 they said, taken out to sea and detonated.

Not sure the game mechanics could stand too high ratings for duds... would you say bombs have higher dud rate than shells? Would bigger bombs have higher dud rates for any reason.

I was thinking of GP bombs 2% and AP bombs 3% and make the 800kilo AP 15% (which was known to be bad).

I have very high rate for fire naval guns at 3-4% dud. All other naval guns 6 inch + at 1%

I am interested to have any thoughts, want to add some more realism without moaning

or negative feedback.

Cav

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:18 pm**

Maybe the bombs could be 3 and 5% ,

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:26 pm**

While I have been looking it seems this will have to have some more thought.

On 13 April 1945, thirty-four Lancaster bombers from 617 ("Dambusters") squadron and No. 9 Squadron RAF launched an attack on Lützow and Prinz Eugen in Swinemünde. Some Lancasters carried 1000-pound bombs, others carried the super-heavy Tallboy bomb with which they had sunk Tirpitz in November 1944. The raid had to be aborted because of cloud cover over the targets. A second raid by twenty Lancasters of 617 squadron two days later failed again because of cloud cover.[104] On 16 April, eighteen Lancasters from 617 squadron were more successful.[105][106] Three 1000-pound bombs hit the ship. One bomb hit the bow and another fell close to the aft turret, but both were duds. Another bomb destroyed the range finder and all platforms on the battle mast.

Posted: **Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:55 pm**

Cavalry Corp wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:26 pm While I have been looking it seems this will have to have some more thought.

On 13 April 1945, thirty-four Lancaster bombers from 617 ("Dambusters") squadron and No. 9 Squadron RAF launched an attack on Lützow and Prinz Eugen in Swinemünde. Some Lancasters carried 1000-pound bombs, others carried the super-heavy Tallboy bomb with which they had sunk Tirpitz in November 1944. The raid had to be aborted because of cloud cover over the targets. A second raid by twenty Lancasters of 617 squadron two days later failed again because of cloud cover.[104] On 16 April, eighteen Lancasters from 617 squadron were more successful.[105][106] Three 1000-pound bombs hit the ship. One bomb hit the bow and another fell close to the aft turret, but both were duds. Another bomb destroyed the range finder and all platforms on the battle mast.

I read where they recently took care of one of those duds.

But the dud rate would also depend upon what the shell/bomb impacted on. I read where 10% of the US Naval shells fired on Okinawa were duds due to the volcanic rock. Much like the soft peat of marshes, bogs, swamps and the soft bottom of lakes and ports, the shells and bombs won't slow fast enough for the fuses to go off.

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:48 am**

RangerJoe wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:55 pm But the dud rate would also depend upon what the shell/bomb impacted on. I read where 10% of the US Naval shells fired on Okinawa were duds due to the volcanic rock. Much like the soft peat of marshes, bogs, swamps and the soft bottom of lakes and ports, the shells and bombs won't slow fast enough for the fuses to go off.

While true, these duds won't really matter in game, right? These are misses, and the game doesn't have to deal with clean-up.

I think we would be able to just focus on the "duds" that occur when they hit a valid target, but fail to detonate. Those numbers seem to range from 1% to 5% generally, with the IJ 800kg converted shells being a special case of 10% to 15%.

If you really want to get nit-picky, then the dud rates should climb as the war goes badly for IJ. As the IJ loses sources of various materials and has to do with substitutes or simply cut back on them, their dud rates should increase. This is a pain to put in place as you would have to have a progression of devices that the IJ would need to "upgrade" to in order to get the effects in game. But doable. Conversely, as long as they hold the PI or Nauru Island or China east of Kunming, you might want to hold the dud rates to starting values. You can complicate this as much as you like.

Posted: **Thu Mar 07, 2024 12:55 pm**

Thanks for all the inputs. I have done a lot of testing and arrived at values which add some tension to the game without being too much.

Cav

Posted: **Fri Mar 08, 2024 9:35 pm**

Cav,

Would appreciate at some future point if you could share your results. Did adding duds improve the game, where and how. And then, what values did you use. Thanks!

Posted: **Sat Mar 09, 2024 2:22 am**

Speaking of dud rates in production, about 36,000 Allied prisoners of war were held in Japan during the war and were compelled to work as slave labor, under extremely harsh conditions, in coal mines, shipyards and munitions factories. The Koreans and Chinese of course, in even vaster numbers. As with Germany I would like to think such labor did their part when they could to screw with the Japanese war effort but quantifying it would be impossible.

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:24 pm**

Yes will share data soon.

I am testing PH attacks or all 4 of my mods (2 for old maps , 2 for new map) .
Tweaked the bombs up and down a bit but actually get similar results.

Anyway I am looking at PH for typically 2 BB sunk (remember stock has the wrong TT for the kate - the one they used was a bit less powerful, that may have some effect. The Dud rate on the 800kilo is higher ok, and after all only 2BB were not raised. I have results with 1 , 2 and 3 so far. Also had similar before adding duds for the bombs.

Near misses maybe in the game but it does not state so and a miss is a miss it seems- near misses would I guess mainly cause FLTN damage - never seen that reported but would have loved to have seen it in the game. We do get belt hits with bombs as we all know but they seem to do nothing?

I will come back soon. I am shuffling some ships around as my mods have low tech start and I have just been provided with some old ship art, some really good old rust buckets ... it takes a while.

Cav

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2024 9:47 pm**

Cavalry Corp wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:24 pm Yes will share data soon.

I am testing PH attacks or all 4 of my mods (2 for old maps , 2 for new map) .
Tweaked the bombs up and down a bit but actually get similar results.

Anyway I am looking at PH for typically 2 BB sunk (remember stock has the wrong TT for the kate - the one they used was a bit less powerful, that may have some effect. The Dud rate on the 800kilo is higher ok, and after all only 2BB were not raised. I have results with 1 , 2 and 3 so far. Also had similar before adding duds for the bombs.

Near misses maybe in the game but it does not state so and a miss is a miss it seems- near misses would I guess mainly cause FLTN damage - never seen that reported but would have loved to have seen it in the game. We do get belt hits with bombs as we all know but they seem to do nothing?

I will come back soon. I am shuffling some ships around as my mods have low tech start and I have just been provided with some old ship art, some really good old rust buckets ... it takes a while.

Cav

I don't know this for sure but some of the bomb "hits" may actually be near misses that do flotation damage. If I remember correctly, a bomb exploding 20 feet* away from the target gave the most damage for this due to the concussion shock wave effect.

* or yards, I forget which.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... -the-18736

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/artic ... friesland/

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