Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:22 pm**

This might have been raised before but I have been watching the 1943 Citadel scenario between Duedman and OldCrowBalthazor and have been experiencing it in my own MP game, too: paratroopers penetrating way too far behind the lines. Does anyone else find this ahistorical? My limited understanding is that the restricted range of paradrops wasn't the range of the aircraft but the ability of the paratroops to be relieved by ground forces.

At the moment, Long-Range Aircraft increases the operational range of paratroops by 1 per level (Max. 5). If a player invests in this research, paratroops can penetrate a looooong way behind the lines, potentially taking very strategic targets, especially those NM ones. They don't need to worry too much about supply because they get it from the settlement. Yes, there is a decision to invest and yes, those targets need to be protected but it still irks me.

Proposal: Paratroops be given a maximum of Level 2 in Long-Range Aircraft, down from 5.

Posted: **Thu Mar 21, 2024 8:38 pm**

I can think of at least two historical examples of long range paratroop drops in World War II - German invasion of Crete and Operation Market Garden. Both of those were high risk attempts to drop Para units way behind enemy lines in places where the enemy weren't expecting it - or at least according to their respective military intelligence bureaus. Para units were still a novelty going into World War II, it was really an experimental stage - check out if you're interested videos of the pre-war Soviet paratroop training, it looks like the flying circus. Literally, they put the troopers ON THE WINGS of a large plane and they jumped off!!
The invasion of Crete was a big gamble, the idea was that paratroops would secure the airfields, and reinforcements would be flown in, while the bulk of the Axis forces were being ferried across the sea. Very risky, and although a success there were such high casualties that Hitler ordered no more large-scale para-drops were to take place. Former "Luftwaffe" para units became regular infantry for the most part for the remainder of the war.
Market-Garden was a great plan but operated on the assumption that the Nazi troops defending the bridges were "old men on bicycles" when it turned out to be two crack SS Panzer divisions. The idea was that by securing the bridges, the main allied ground force (XXX Corps) would be able to "cruise" up the Dutch roads quickly to relieve the paratroopers in Arnhem, "the bridge too far". They also did not take into account how easy those roads were to clog. The result was a disaster for the Allied forces, with the bulk of British paratroopers either being killed or taken prisoner.
Personally I like the idea of paratroops having long range, because it puts more emphasis on defending critical spots behind the lines, instead of devolving into a static front line slug-fest like World War I in France. Imagine how differently that war would have been with paratroops! If it were not for the threat of long range paratroop strikes, it seems that there would be no need to defend these places deep behind the lines at all - except to protect them from Long-Range bombers. If that were the case in reality, that military planners ignored the areas behind the lines - Crete would have had fewer casualties and maybe Hitler would have done more mass para drops. Market-Garden certainly may have ended the war if there were no German units at all defending those bridges. It's one of the elements that I think help to make SCWaW a different experience than SCWW1 - more to worry about than just having a solid "front line".

Posted: **Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:05 pm**

I understand and agree with your points but in the game these are the ranges of the paradrops you mention:

Crete - 7 or 8 hexes from southern Greece
Arnhem - 5 or 6 hexes from Brussels or 10 or 11 hexes from Cambridge. Most players would have the paratroops on the ground in Belgium before preparing to jump.

Paratroops have a starting operational range of 6 and gain a hex per level of LR Aircraft, so what I am proposing would still allow for those two drops (Max. operational range of 8), unless the Allied player wanted to try a drop on Arnhem from England, which is unlikely to be attempted unless supporting ground units are in place.

Anyway, my point is that the historical paradrops are still achievable if the max. level of LRA is capped at 2 for paratroops, just not ones from Smolensk to Moscow as an extreme example.

Posted: **Fri Mar 22, 2024 11:31 pm**

papayeti wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 8:38 pm I can think of at least two historical examples of long range paratroop drops in World War II - German invasion of Crete and Operation Market Garden. Both of those were high risk attempts to drop Para units way behind enemy lines in places where the enemy weren't expecting it - or at least according to their respective military intelligence bureaus. Para units were still a novelty going into World War II, it was really an experimental stage - check out if you're interested videos of the pre-war Soviet paratroop training, it looks like the flying circus. Literally, they put the troopers ON THE WINGS of a large plane and they jumped off!!
The invasion of Crete was a big gamble, the idea was that paratroops would secure the airfields, and reinforcements would be flown in, while the bulk of the Axis forces were being ferried across the sea. Very risky, and although a success there were such high casualties that Hitler ordered no more large-scale para-drops were to take place. Former "Luftwaffe" para units became regular infantry for the most part for the remainder of the war.
Market-Garden was a great plan but operated on the assumption that the Nazi troops defending the bridges were "old men on bicycles" when it turned out to be two crack SS Panzer divisions. The idea was that by securing the bridges, the main allied ground force (XXX Corps) would be able to "cruise" up the Dutch roads quickly to relieve the paratroopers in Arnhem, "the bridge too far". They also did not take into account how easy those roads were to clog. The result was a disaster for the Allied forces, with the bulk of British paratroopers either being killed or taken prisoner.
Personally I like the idea of paratroops having long range, because it puts more emphasis on defending critical spots behind the lines, instead of devolving into a static front line slug-fest like World War I in France. Imagine how differently that war would have been with paratroops! If it were not for the threat of long range paratroop strikes, it seems that there would be no need to defend these places deep behind the lines at all - except to protect them from Long-Range bombers. If that were the case in reality, that military planners ignored the areas behind the lines - Crete would have had fewer casualties and maybe Hitler would have done more mass para drops. Market-Garden certainly may have ended the war if there were no German units at all defending those bridges. It's one of the elements that I think help to make SCWaW a different experience than SCWW1 - more to worry about than just having a solid "front line".

I always wondered why Hitler was so concerned with the paratrooper losses in the battle for Crete but never cared about any other losses in future battles such as Stalingrad it was always never retreat die defending etc...

Posted: **Fri Mar 22, 2024 11:36 pm**

Tanaka wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 11:31 pm I always wondered why Hitler was so concerned with the paratrooper losses in the battle for Crete but never cared about any other losses in future battles such as Stalingrad it was always never retreat die defending etc...

Probably because he saw Crete as wasteful sideshow, and it did eventually become a strategic backwater in the war. But Stalingrad had Stalin's name on it. There's a prize worth sacrificing an army for in his fevered mind.

Posted: **Sat Mar 23, 2024 8:33 am**

I love my Paratroopers but yeah. Maybe that range could use some nerfing.

What also should get nerfed (again) is the passive spotting of fighters and maritime bombers (and probably carriers).
In the current match vs OCB my lvl5 LR fighters see the whole front. Just by sitting in the back.
Thats like playing with FoW off.

One could always houserule to not tech LR above 2 or 3 I guess

Posted: **Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:54 am**

That house rule would nerf air units as well as paratroops, which is not my proposal. LRA for air units is AOK for the 'range' part but the spotting increase is perhaps not needed.

Posted: **Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:33 am**

Hi

It is not the distance that you can drop paratroopers that is wrong but how you can use them in the game. As already said, parachute operations were always in cooperation with ground troops. So also in the case of Crete and Operation Market Garden. In the case of Crete, it was intended that an invasion from the sea would be carried out at the same time, which failed and from air to a captured airfield. So in short they were forced to secure an airfield so that the airborne units could be reinforced or relieved from the air, otherwise the whole operation would probably have failed. If you consider that the mainland of Greece was in the hands of the Germans and exclude the sea, the operation was close to German territory and German units.

Paratroopers and airborne units were not there to invade enemy land, but to secure important specific targets in the path of the advance for the ground units and to be relieved by the ground units as quickly as possible. So using them strategically becomes a bit ridiculous.
One solution is that the game engine would calculate where the nearest own units is and then only allow a drop of airborne units say one or two provinces or maybe up to tree provinces beyond them but exclude the sea provinces in the calculation.

One can hope that the game can be updated and limit the use of airborne units to the same degree as was intended in reality.

Cheers
Captain Jack

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:45 am**

Platoonist wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 11:36 pm
Tanaka wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 11:31 pm I always wondered why Hitler was so concerned with the paratrooper losses in the battle for Crete but never cared about any other losses in future battles such as Stalingrad it was always never retreat die defending etc...
Probably because he saw Crete as wasteful sideshow, and it did eventually become a strategic backwater in the war. But Stalingrad had Stalin's name on it. There's a prize worth sacrificing an army for in his fevered mind.

Yes but not just Stalingrad. I just always thought it odd that Crete was the only time you heard of him concerned with loss of life.

Posted: **Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:47 am**

Tanaka wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:45 am Yes but not just Stalingrad. I just always thought it odd that Crete was the only time you heard of him concerned with loss of life.

Hitler was unpredictable at times. For a man who worshiped at the altar of symbolism, he was absolutely livid over a small military expedition that climbed and planted the Nazi flag on Mt. Elbrus, the highest peak in Europe. In his mind these 23 men were supposed to be driving south to the Black Sea, not bagging peaks. Albert Speer recalled later, “I often saw Hitler furious but seldom did his anger erupt from him as it did when this report came in. For hours he raged as if his entire plan of the campaign had been ruined by this bit of sport."

Even days later he was still railing to any who would listen about “those crazy mountain climbers” who “belong before a court-martial.”

Posted: **Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:59 am**

Platoonist wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:47 am
Tanaka wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:45 am Yes but not just Stalingrad. I just always thought it odd that Crete was the only time you heard of him concerned with loss of life.
Hitler was unpredictable at times. For a man who worshiped at the altar of symbolism, he was absolutely livid over a small military expedition that climbed and planted the Nazi flag on Mt. Elbrus, the highest peak in Europe. In his mind these 23 men were supposed to be driving south to the Black Sea, not bagging peaks. Albert Speer recalled later, “I often saw Hitler furious but seldom did his anger erupt from him as it did when this report came in. For hours he raged as if his entire plan of the campaign had been ruined by this bit of sport."

Even days later he was still railing to any who would listen about “those crazy mountain climbers” who “belong before a court-martial.”

Now that's funny. Never heard that story before. Very interesting!

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:11 am**

Platoonist wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:47 am
Tanaka wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:45 am Yes but not just Stalingrad. I just always thought it odd that Crete was the only time you heard of him concerned with loss of life.
Hitler was unpredictable at times. For a man who worshiped at the altar of symbolism, he was absolutely livid over a small military expedition that climbed and planted the Nazi flag on Mt. Elbrus, the highest peak in Europe. In his mind these 23 men were supposed to be driving south to the Black Sea, not bagging peaks. Albert Speer recalled later, “I often saw Hitler furious but seldom did his anger erupt from him as it did when this report came in. For hours he raged as if his entire plan of the campaign had been ruined by this bit of sport."

Even days later he was still railing to any who would listen about “those crazy mountain climbers” who “belong before a court-martial.”

I know this story and one of my favorites. First came upon this when I was 15 years old and bought on of my first books with my own money: Hitler Moves East by Paul Carell (The author a bit of a controversial character I may add)
Here's an image of that 50 year old book I still have in my library. Its still relevant and packed with great content. Also, doing the math, you can guess my age haha.

btw will chime in on my opinions concerning airborne mechanics in this game later. I was just drifting through..................

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:52 am**

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:11 am I know this story and one of my favorites. First came upon this when I was 15 years old and bought on of my first books with my own money: Hitler Moves East by Paul Carell (The author a bit of a controversial character I may add)Here's an image of that 50 year old book I still have in my library. Its still relevant and packed with great content. Also, doing the math, you can guess my age haha.

Funny, due to poor cash flow at that age I used to check the hardback version of that book out of the local library pretty regularly. Invasion! They're Coming! by Carell about Normandy was another favorite. They were about the only frontline accounts from the German perspective at the time. It seems a lot of the early post war memoirs by the likes of Carell, Von Manstein, Guderian and Von Mellenthin have come under closer scrutiny in recent years for being somewhat self-serving, i.e. we fought valiantly caught between a meddling Hitler and a rabble of endless Soviet hordes.

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:51 am**

Platoonist wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:52 am
OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:11 am I know this story and one of my favorites. First came upon this when I was 15 years old and bought on of my first books with my own money: Hitler Moves East by Paul Carell (The author a bit of a controversial character I may add)Here's an image of that 50 year old book I still have in my library. Its still relevant and packed with great content. Also, doing the math, you can guess my age haha.

Funny, due to poor cash flow at that age I used to check the hardback version of that book out of the local library pretty regularly. Invasion! They're Coming! by Carell about Normandy was another favorite. They were about the only frontline accounts from the German perspective at the time. It seems a lot of the early post war memoirs by the likes of Carell, Von Manstein, Guderian and Von Mellenthin have come under closer scrutiny in recent years for being somewhat self-serving, i.e. we fought valiantly caught between a meddling Hitler and a rabble of endless Soviet hordes.

Ah well back in the 'golden years' haha, they let kids work. I started working at around 12 years old picking strawberries, raspberries and cucumbers for a Nisei family named Sakuma in Washington State. Moved up to row checker and than was taught how to drive a tractor by 14. At 15 I was driving a flat bed truck in the fields and farm roads with loads of produce. I didn't even know how to drive a car yet!

Now days they would call that child abuse lol.

Anyways, yeah...a lot of those memoirs were exactly what you described. Paul Carell especially wrote what can at the very least be described as revisionist. Back then, it was difficult to find out this particular author's history. I mean shoot this guy was SS and served in the Allemeine-SS. Still, forgetting that unsavory factor, his books are informative. I for one would never advocate banning of any book, though the far right has a penchant of doing that very thing.

The other books by the above authors I have read. I do admire their generalship. But then, there was little mention of what was going on in the 'back lot' of the truck-stop called the Eastern Front.
This white washing is a form of Wehrabooism I would say. At least Wehraboo Lite.
But I degress.....

Posted: **Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:32 am**

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:11 am
Platoonist wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:47 am
Tanaka wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:45 am Yes but not just Stalingrad. I just always thought it odd that Crete was the only time you heard of him concerned with loss of life.
Hitler was unpredictable at times. For a man who worshiped at the altar of symbolism, he was absolutely livid over a small military expedition that climbed and planted the Nazi flag on Mt. Elbrus, the highest peak in Europe. In his mind these 23 men were supposed to be driving south to the Black Sea, not bagging peaks. Albert Speer recalled later, “I often saw Hitler furious but seldom did his anger erupt from him as it did when this report came in. For hours he raged as if his entire plan of the campaign had been ruined by this bit of sport."

Even days later he was still railing to any who would listen about “those crazy mountain climbers” who “belong before a court-martial.”
I know this story and one of my favorites. First came upon this when I was 15 years old and bought on of my first books with my own money: Hitler Moves East by Paul Carell (The author a bit of a controversial character I may add)
Here's an image of that 50 year old book I still have in my library. Its still relevant and packed with great content. Also, doing the math, you can guess my age haha.

btw will chime in on my opinions concerning airborne mechanics in this game later. I was just drifting through..................

My math tells me you are 40 years old

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2024 6:33 am**

gigiduru wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:32 am
OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:11 am
Platoonist wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 11:47 am

Hitler was unpredictable at times. For a man who worshiped at the altar of symbolism, he was absolutely livid over a small military expedition that climbed and planted the Nazi flag on Mt. Elbrus, the highest peak in Europe. In his mind these 23 men were supposed to be driving south to the Black Sea, not bagging peaks. Albert Speer recalled later, “I often saw Hitler furious but seldom did his anger erupt from him as it did when this report came in. For hours he raged as if his entire plan of the campaign had been ruined by this bit of sport."

Even days later he was still railing to any who would listen about “those crazy mountain climbers” who “belong before a court-martial.”
I know this story and one of my favorites. First came upon this when I was 15 years old and bought on of my first books with my own money: Hitler Moves East by Paul Carell (The author a bit of a controversial character I may add)
Here's an image of that 50 year old book I still have in my library. Its still relevant and packed with great content. Also, doing the math, you can guess my age haha.

btw will chime in on my opinions concerning airborne mechanics in this game later. I was just drifting through..................
My math tells me you are 40 years old

LoL maths not a strong point I see. Same here.

Well I was 40...25 years ago.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2024 7:17 am**

Seems this Paratroop topic came up in Topics Thread: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 4#p5168224

Its titled 'Paratroop 'Chaining'. Heard the term before but not quite sure what it means.

The starting in good 5+ supply, and force-marching into low-supply and prepare deal I know about. This 'chaining thing'...if its a thing, needs elaboration.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2024 12:05 pm**

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 6:33 am
gigiduru wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:32 am
OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:11 am

I know this story and one of my favorites. First came upon this when I was 15 years old and bought on of my first books with my own money: Hitler Moves East by Paul Carell (The author a bit of a controversial character I may add)
Here's an image of that 50 year old book I still have in my library. Its still relevant and packed with great content. Also, doing the math, you can guess my age haha.

btw will chime in on my opinions concerning airborne mechanics in this game later. I was just drifting through..................
My math tells me you are 40 years old
LoL maths not a strong point I see. Same here.

Well I was 40...25 years ago.

Uhmm ... are you the bloke on the left or on the right?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2024 12:35 am**

Old Bear Balthazor?

Posted: **Sat May 18, 2024 5:19 pm**

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