Matrix Games Forums

Love the game, but think some of the unit values could be improved.

For example, why is the Tiger 1 defence value of 380 so high compared to the M26 Pershing, which has only 293, I thought they had similar protection levels ?

The Firefly hard attack is only 251, when it should be similar to the Panther L70 gun of 327. I know the game uses a generic algorithm to calculate these values, but this does result in some erroneous results.

Not trying to be critical, just want a better game, like all of us.

Appreciate any thoughts.

HI,
Happy you like the game and thanks for the feedback !

I understand your point and it's very easy to change the values ​​in the editor to run your own tests.
I have done more than 3 years of testing for a valid and realistic algorithm.
The defense value of the tank is greatly influenced by its weight (Tiger 56 tons vs Pershing 42 tons).
The performance of the weapon strongly depends on the barrel length (Panther 5250mm vs Firefly 4180mm), because penetration values depend too much on the type of ammunition.

Clearly it's not 100% perfect but I think the actual algorithm is a good compromise.

Davide

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
atksoft = (gun (mm) * shot weight (kg)) / 10
defsoft = 75% atksoft
atkhard = ((barrel lenght mm*2) * muzzle vel. ms) /100) /300)
defhard = 75% atkhard
defense = (weight * protection / 30 ) + speed (km)

A table with penetration values made after the war.
The Panther use the standard Pzgr.39, the 17pdr best value are only with late war or experimental proiectiles.

nikdav wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 10:26 am
atksoft = (gun (mm) * shot weight (kg)) / 10
defsoft = 75% atksoft
atkhard = ((barrel lenght mm*2) * muzzle vel. ms) /100) /300)
defhard = 75% atkhard
defense = (weight * protection / 30 ) + speed (km)

Hello,

are these formulas also used in Case Blue? I am working on a Seelow '45 scenario and have to create the russian trooptypes for it. Would help quiet a bit if I could just take the values from Case Blue for the units that exist in there. Are there similiar formulas for artillery?
Thank you in advance!

No, the values are different, I never used Case Blue editor but in the DC Community Project forum i find years ago this pdf, don't know who made it but all data you need are there !

Thank you for the pdf. I am working in the Ardennes Editor and make the scenario there, even if it is on the eastern front, but it involves creating a lot of new/changing existing trooptypes.

nikdav wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 10:13 am No, the values are different, I never used Case Blue editor but in the DC Community Project forum i find years ago this pdf, don't know who made it but all data you need are there !

Hey Nice to see my file being used

Now we know the source of this precious "anonymous" manuscript

HermannMatern wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 4:02 pm I am working in the Ardennes Editor and make the scenario there, even if it is on the eastern front, but it involves creating a lot of new/changing existing trooptypes.

Remember that in Ardennes editor the scale is fixed to 1km/hex.
Have you tried the DC Community Project editor ? both DC4 Ardennes and the future DC5 started with the DCCP editor !
You can start modding my November 42 (10km/hex) or Fastov 43 (5km/hex) scenarios.

nikdav wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 12:27 pm Now we know the source of this precious "anonymous" manuscript

nikdav wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 12:44 pm Remember that in Ardennes editor the scale is fixed to 1km/hex.
Have you tried the DC Community Project editor ? both DC4 Ardennes and the future DC5 started with the DCCP editor !
You can start modding my November 42 (10km/hex) or Fastov 43 (5km/hex) scenarios.

I already made the map, what requiered a lot of measuring on Google Maps. Even with the 1km/hex the whole map by now is only 20x30km. I may add some area to the east to give the soviet side some room to organize and have communication lines to move between to north and south without using dirt roads being in a firing line of german troops. I also finished creating most of the necessary soviet trooptypes.

ernieschwitz wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 5:20 am Hey Nice to see my file being used

The file was of great help to keep values consistent with the game in general. For tanks I used Davide's calculation. But I also used it to calculate Anti-Tank-Guns hard defence (and then hrd atk being 75% of that), but reduced it by 25% in order to give credit to the missing mobility. I found the caliber [mm] + 10 = hard atk to low when compared to tanks. Their main disadvantage is survivability not the armor piercing capability and that is modelled by the defence value for what I understand. I also used my hard attack value for the 88mm Flak as it was used as an anti-tank weapon with devestating effect on the Seelow Heights and the hard attack, hard defence value didnt reflect that capability at all.

HermannMatern wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:40 am ...

ernieschwitz wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 5:20 am Hey Nice to see my file being used

The file was of great help to keep values consistent with the game in general.
...

The list was never meant to be the final answer to the question of what the stats are, but rather a list containing a nice guide to get some values that are near what is needed. It is a springboard, that you can fudge the numbers of. Also scale was bigger, which does change some stuff.

Nice work !
To check the elevation level (but also the forested areas) there is a great interactive online topographic world map :

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/map-c ... 36&zoom=12