Allies vs Italy invasion scripts

[havoc1371]

The tools put in place to prevent the Allied player from setting up to invade Italy at the DoW is pretty useless. Players now use it to trigger Italy to war immediately in 1939 when its not prepared. Just send a bunch of ships into the zone and its a freebie for the Allies with no ill effects of a DoW on a neutral Italy. Don't know what would fix it though, other than to remove it all together and go back to gamey first turn invasions of Italy after its DoW.

At this point is seems like every attempt to "fix" something breaks something else.

[IIo4Tu]

The tools put in place to prevent the Allied player from setting up to invade Italy at the DoW is pretty useless. Players now use it to trigger Italy to war immediately in 1939 when its not prepared. Just send a bunch of ships into the zone and its a freebie for the Allies with no ill effects of a DoW on a neutral Italy. Don't know what would fix it though, other than to remove it all together and go back to gamey first turn invasions of Italy after its DoW.

At this point is seems like every attempt to "fix" something breaks something else.

And what's wrong with Italy joining the war early? On the contrary, it is a gift to the axis - more resources, a new front in Africa, the allies will have to disperse their forces, instead of concentrating in France

[havoc1371]

The tools put in place to prevent the Allied player from setting up to invade Italy at the DoW is pretty useless. Players now use it to trigger Italy to war immediately in 1939 when its not prepared. Just send a bunch of ships into the zone and its a freebie for the Allies with no ill effects of a DoW on a neutral Italy. Don't know what would fix it though, other than to remove it all together and go back to gamey first turn invasions of Italy after its DoW.

At this point is seems like every attempt to "fix" something breaks something else.

And what's wrong with Italy joining the war early? On the contrary, it is a gift to the axis - more resources, a new front in Africa, the allies will have to disperse their forces, instead of concentrating in France

Italy DoW in 1939 is not a "gift". Italy in Nov 39 is weak, with both the Army and the Navy having incomplete units. Italy DoW brings in the Western Desert Force early, making the imbalance in North Africa even worse. Germany's focus on preparing to invade France is now divided as the British and French navy blockade all Libyan ports and destroy the Italian navy. Italy is vulnerable to an Allied invasion that will crash its morale and eventually cause it to surrender and switch sides. All this at no penalty against the Allies since Italy is the one who DoW'd because the Allied player can manipulate the AI by swarming Italy with ships. Instead of the penalty zones around Italy deterring Allied aggression, it encourages it.

[BillRunacre]

You have given me ideas for further changes...

[havoc1371]

You have given me ideas for further changes...

I'll be interested in seeing what you come up with for this.

I thought about changing the zones to only being effected by AV/AVL's and not ships; that way the Allied player has to go to the expense of building a bunch of them to trigger the Italians. Alternatively (or in addition to the AV/AVL zone), instead of triggering Italy to DoW, cause the U.S. to react negatively to Allied "aggressive behavior" in the Med. Out of fairness to those who don't like Italy sending troops around Africa to boost East Africa, have an Allied "event" that offers units delivered directly to Kenya in response to the Italian "build up".

Sending the Italian fleet out of the Med should have a negative effect on Italian morale, much like the one for the French abandoning their colonies in the Med, and/or increase readiness of the U.S. in response to the "threat". Another idea is that moving the Italian fleet into the Atlantic cancels the penalties for Britain DoW against Italy, since America should recognize that as an aggressive move Britain should respond to.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

IIo4Tu is one of the top players in the world. This dude knows what he's talking about.

[BillRunacre]

Alternatively (or in addition to the AV/AVL zone), instead of triggering Italy to DoW, cause the U.S. to react negatively to Allied "aggressive behavior" in the Med.

This is already the case, it moves the US 5-7% towards the Axis, so that might change. Similarly with Spain.

Increasing those penalties could make players think... and I have another idea too.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

The gamey move is British/French stealing Tripoli in Spring 1940.
Tripoli is a safe naval/air base outta Axis range.
The North Africa campaign is already lost.
Allows Allies distant, safe air base and staging.
Axis cannot bother with Tobruk with Tripoli gone.
Americans buy all the Marines and just swarm Italy.
x3 attacks in the Western Hemisphere.
Just take HQ and couple units from Egypt to do so.
Players empty Egypt all the time.
Either Tripoli or shove them in France.
No need to bother with any Technology or upgrades in Naval.
All-in on landing ground forces, you'll find a port and shove them in 1942.
Game over.

The entire MedFront is collasped in Spring 1940 with this move.

There's no point in Naval Battles, Tripoli is too far to bother with.
Malta doesn't matter.
UK/USA can wait on Gibraltar & Tripoli.
Swarm of Marines mob Sicily.
Rinse and repeat on the Boot somewhere.

[IIo4Tu]

The tools put in place to prevent the Allied player from setting up to invade Italy at the DoW is pretty useless. Players now use it to trigger Italy to war immediately in 1939 when its not prepared. Just send a bunch of ships into the zone and its a freebie for the Allies with no ill effects of a DoW on a neutral Italy. Don't know what would fix it though, other than to remove it all together and go back to gamey first turn invasions of Italy after its DoW.

At this point is seems like every attempt to "fix" something breaks something else.

And what's wrong with Italy joining the war early? On the contrary, it is a gift to the axis - more resources, a new front in Africa, the allies will have to disperse their forces, instead of concentrating in France

Italy DoW in 1939 is not a "gift". Italy in Nov 39 is weak, with both the Army and the Navy having incomplete units. Italy DoW brings in the Western Desert Force early, making the imbalance in North Africa even worse. Germany's focus on preparing to invade France is now divided as the British and French navy blockade all Libyan ports and destroy the Italian navy. Italy is vulnerable to an Allied invasion that will crash its morale and eventually cause it to surrender and switch sides. All this at no penalty against the Allies since Italy is the one who DoW'd because the Allied player can manipulate the AI by swarming Italy with ships. Instead of the penalty zones around Italy deterring Allied aggression, it encourages it.

it sounds strong in theory, but I doubt very much that this is feasible in practice, can you show me this devastating strategy?

[havoc1371]

I don't get notifications on this, so I didn't see the request for an example. Libya starts the game understrength, with most of its ground and naval not built up. I had a player swarm the Med around Italy in the marked zones, triggering it to go to war, allowing the Allies to blockade Libya, destroy transports that were at sea, and attack Italy's navy that was still not built up by a massed CV attack on ports. So free DoW on Italy by making the AI trigger it, with no penalties (other than US with their "Bad Allies, we're going 5-7% in favor of Hitler). This leaves Italy with little or no navy, no real ability to hold Libya till Rommel can show up in Nov 40, which still requires building up and transport to Libya, and now has no ports to land in because they're reduced. Countering this requires the Axis player to move the entirety of their aviation to Sicily to try to regain control or just give up on the Med Outside of Italy itself. This is just another example of players manipulating the AI to gain an advantage.

[AlbertN]

It's not just a matter of manipulating the AI.
It's a matter also of the naval-air business being totally skewed in favor of ships in Strategic Command.

In general there should be -by default- enough naval deterrence to induce naval assets to keep away from enemy coasts, carriers being sensibly weaker vs land based air, and ships being more vulnerable - it would change the dynamic the moment Italy has also more air. Too many what IFs and changes prolly but that's how factually it is.

I am a novice of this game but by what I've read above it paints the game in a bad light by a big shot, if in '40 Allies have simply a way to seal the mediterranean theater. Invasions also seem quite cheap.