Matrix Games Forums

Hello

The movement rate from especially panzer units seems to high imo.

For example: Elements from the german 16th panzer (or so.. cant remember yet) arrives at hex 21/48.

With extended move they can drive 25 hex (to hex 16/28 for example). One hex are three kilometres and one turn is a half day right?

This means they can move around 75 kilometres in 12 hours during bad weather and on nearly non existant russian "roads" full of snow, mud and slush. Hmmm..

Nearly the same goes for motorized units but not so dramatically like panzer units.

I don`t want to jump on a thread, but after almost 30 hours of playing I too am surprised at the movement rates of the Panzers, given the conditions, which enables them to move and attack over quite long distances.


As a comparison from "The Devils Adjutant" by Maj. Gen. Michael Reynolds on Peiper and his Kampfgruppe of the 1 SS Panzer LAH.

" In the Ardennes Peiper, >with fresh troops and new machines< made 100 Km in the first 72 hours. In the 1991 Gulf War the British 1st. Armored Div. covered the same distance in 70 hours".

The >< are my comments.

Assuming Vasquez`s numbers are correct, and not to knock the Game, the movement rate seems a bit on the high side IMHO.

Hopefully we can hear from the Designer on this ?

Here is my $.02 FWIW.

75km in 12 hours is only about 6km/hour and that is significantly less that the top speed of most armor. It sounds like you are moving behind your own lines so there is little need to move cautiously. I believe extended movement is basically column movement which is why you lose the combat option. Seems like a reasonable pace to me.

Peiper was moving through enemy territory so he would most likely not have been in "extended movement" mode in game terms, otherwise he couldn't attack. If memory servers he got lost more than once as well.

good point with the friendly territory. but behind own lines or not I doubt that a panzerregiment could drive 150km in 24 hours (or 300km in 48 hours etc.) through mud and snow and has his full combat cabability after this.

they would lose their half equippment and would be completely outpowered.

I agree that continuous movement over long distances should degrade combat effectiveness. KP does not reflect that right now so you'll have to get Korsun '44 if you want a breakdown rule.

The 16th arrive on around turn 14 in the campaign game. This means the terrain is still frozen.

Frozen hard. There is no mud, there is no slush, and prior to the thaw, the roads were bearable in that region.

In Hell's Gate (Douglas Nash) , P. 161, there is a photo of some halftracks and armour elements of 1st Panzer advancing towards Uman, early Feb 44. Flat as a pancake, no evidence of churned up roads; snow cover perhaps 4-5 cm on the ground.

This is good weather for AFV movement!

Also, note what happens when you start driving into enemy held terrain (like Peiper had to do...) - you get hit with a 7 OP penalty per hex, because AFV's weren't able to do their best Schumacher impressions once inside enemy territory, for hopefully fairly obvious reasons.

Once you hit turn 19, have another look at the terrain movement display. You will notice that the rasputitsa thaw has arrived.

We are talking gooey, sticky, dark earth.

Now try driving around mit der Panzers....not so much fun now, is it? And notice how much harder it is to penetrate into enemy territory, too...

Anyway, there's some thoughts. Hope you are enjoying the game!

Cheers Chris

some good points chris but not 100% satisfyingly for me

but thx for the replies. I appreciate it a lot. And yes I love this game .. and its "mit den Panzern"

" In the Ardennes Peiper, >with fresh troops and new machines< made 100 Km in the first 72 hours. In the 1991 Gulf War the British 1st. Armored Div. covered the same distance in 70 hours".

That is odd, 1st Arm Div with token resistance and zero air threat over desert went the same speed as Peiper with 1944 tanks behind enemy lines and getting lost?

Perhaps 2nd gear would have been useful?

Space§man

From " The Devils Adjutant Jochen Peiper, Panzer Leader" by Maj. Gen. Michael Reynolds, British Army. Page 152.

Reynolds three books on the I and II SS Panzer Corps are well worth reading as well.

Originally posted by Black Cat
From " The Devils Adjutant Jochen Peiper, Panzer Leader" by Maj. Gen. Michael Reynolds, British Army. Page 152.

Reynolds three books on the I and II SS Panzer Corps are well worth reading as well.

Amen. Superb books indeed.

Brubaker