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David meets Goliath
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2024 1:59 pm
by Lobster
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2024 2:59 pm
by rhinobones
As odd as this outcome is, think we have all have seen examples of the 300 Spartans. A few observations:
1. Need to see a sample size larger than one
2. Note that the attacker’s density is bright red
3. Wonder why the defender didn’t RBC
4. Sometimes the roll of the dice is unfathomable
5. The “Full Report” shows how misleading it is to describe losses as a percentage
6. Scenario design might have an Ant Unit problem
Regards, RhinoBones
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2024 7:44 pm
by Cpl GAC
Edit for clarity - the below occurred toying around with Campaign Barbarossa - Lobster's example
Recently I ran into a border guard that had no problem telling a 269inf RGT, then in curiosity a test by the 6th PZ 11th RGT that they had no intention of being overrun and it would have to be duked out in a planned combat.
I was playing around with the 6/22/41 "defense" of Taurage.
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FYI - the map says the Soviet 125th contained the 149th Rifle Regiment, you show it as 749th Rifle Regiment. Inexcuseable.
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2024 11:11 pm
by Lobster
Cpl GAC wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 7:44 pm
Edit for clarity - the below occurred toying around with Campaign Barbarossa - Lobster's example
Recently I ran into a border guard that had no problem telling a 269inf RGT, then in curiosity a test by the 6th PZ 11th RGT that they had no intention of being overrun and it would have to be duked out in a planned combat.
I was playing around with the 6/22/41 "defense" of Taurage.
Taurage.gif
FYI - the map says the Soviet 125th contained the 149th Rifle Regiment, you show it as 749th Rifle Regiment. Inexcuseable.
Yet here it is.
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Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:21 pm
by Cpl GAC
Apparently, the guy making the map of the defense of Taurage was having a long day.
Poking around in curiosity I did find a couple of good documents listing Soviet divisions - the first one based on German records;
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... PEo10e5rIa
https://usacac.army.mil/sites/default/f ... 41RIAB.pdf
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2024 2:37 am
by Lobster
Maybe the document was hand written and the 7 had a short horizonal stroke on the top so it looked like a 1.
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2024 10:22 am
by cathar1244
This Russian site normally has good data; it also lists it as the 749th. (Taken from archived page as my security software doesn't like the samsv.narod.ru site).
https://web.archive.org/web/20190308212 ... fault.html
Cheers
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2024 2:48 pm
by Cpl GAC
In fairness to the Soviet mapmaker - June 1941 was a bit of a confusing and rushed time for them.
On the serious topic - yes - I thought it was strange a 40 attack Pz regiment couldn't overrun the 1-1 border guard. That's why I even bothered to notice regiment #s. It was then that I realized I could bust Lobster's chops.
FYI - I'm not having success replicating it.
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2024 5:37 pm
by cathar1244
There is a lot of variation built into TOAW's combat results, I'll leave it at that. But yeah, those NKVD dudes should have been hood ornaments on Panzer III's and IV's in such a situation. The Soviets didn't even have antitank rifles fielded at that date.
Cheers
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:35 am
by sPzAbt653
The heavy German bombardment caused few casualties as the Soviet Border Guard Detachment took shelter in their four little pillboxes. The attacking German Mot Rgt and Motorcycle Bn confidently marched forward but bounced into each other heading down the one clogged road leading to the bridge over the river, creating a confused traffic jam. The local Soviet Corps Artillery responded by firing off their on-hand shells at the pre-determined road area in front of the bridge, causing heavy casualties among the bunched-up Germans, who quickly withdrew to rethink their assault plan.
For one round of one turn, David does beat Goliath!
[Note that I gained all this intel from the Full Combat Report in post 1, with the assistance of a few Spaten Optimators supplemented by Benedictine].
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:06 pm
by MonkeyBrain3
sPzAbt653 wrote: Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:35 am
The heavy German bombardment caused few casualties as the Soviet Border Guard Detachment took shelter in their four little pillboxes. The attacking German Mot Rgt and Motorcycle Bn confidently marched forward but bounced into each other heading down the one clogged road leading to the bridge over the river, creating a confused traffic jam. The local Soviet Corps Artillery responded by firing off their on-hand shells at the pre-determined road area in front of the bridge, causing heavy casualties among the bunched-up Germans, who quickly withdrew to rethink their assault plan.
For one round of one turn, David does beat Goliath!
[Note that I gained all this intel from the Full Combat Report in post 1, with the assistance of a few Spaten Optimators supplemented by Benedictine].
Sounds like Yankees charging at 1st Manassas/Bull Run or that bridge at Antietam.
Re: David meets Goliath
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 12:08 pm
by Lobster
rhinobones wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 2:59 pm
As odd as this outcome is, think we have all have seen examples of the 300 Spartans. A few observations:
6. Scenario design might have an Ant Unit problem
Regards, RhinoBones
No ant problems. We use the best exterminators on the planet and copious amounts of DDT.
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