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The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact is ignored starting 1942?

According to wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E ... ntrop_Pact

The treaty was the culmination of negotiations around Nazi–Soviet economic relations (1934–1941) § 1938–1939 deal discussions, after tripartite discussions with the Soviet Union, England and France had broken down, and committed neither government would aid or ally itself with an enemy of the other, for the next 10 years.

Do you seriously think that Stalin would have attacked Hitler in 1942 if Hitler had not attacked him in 1941?

Looks like this is the basic rules of every grand strategy game but I don't understand the rationale.

Yes, I think that the USSR would have attacked. The USSR had a treaty with Japan and if Japan was occupied with the USA and the Allies, it is doubtful if the Japanese would have attacked Siberia.

I understand that the army of the USSR was actually forward deployed and may have been ready to attack in 1941.

I think for a game, there isn't much action in England vs. Germany. Who else on the map can provide an interesting challenge?

sPzAbt653 wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:40 pm I think for a game, there isn't much action in England vs. Germany. Who else on the map can provide an interesting challenge?

The USA maybe? And yet another question. If Hitler had not declared war on the United States, would the United States have declared war on Germany? Another grand strategy basic rules.

ncc1701e wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:08 pm The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact is ignored starting 1942?

According to wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E ... ntrop_Pact

The treaty was the culmination of negotiations around Nazi–Soviet economic relations (1934–1941) § 1938–1939 deal discussions, after tripartite discussions with the Soviet Union, England and France had broken down, and committed neither government would aid or ally itself with an enemy of the other, for the next 10 years.

Do you seriously think that Stalin would have attacked Hitler in 1942 if Hitler had not attacked him in 1941?

Looks like this is the basic rules of every grand strategy game but I don't understand the rationale.

warspite1

If Hitler hadn’t attacked the USSR in 1941 then what would have the Germans been doing? This I think is key to what Stalin may have considered. But without the Germans entangled elsewhere - and I mean seriously entangled elsewhere - then I don’t think there was the remotest possibility that they USSR would have taken on the Wehrmacht. This is especially so given what the German Army had achieved between September 1939 and May 1941. Why would Stalin take such a risk?

ncc1701e wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:56 pm And yet another question. If Hitler had not declared war on the United States, would the United States have declared war on Germany? Another grand strategy basic rules.

warspite1

I don’t know enough about the internal politics in the US and how difficult it would still have been for FDR to get that through Congress. BUT given what was happening in the Spring/Summer of 1942 in the USSR and North Africa, I suspect he would have really tried.

The interesting thing comes in the late Autumn and Winter of 1942 if the USA had stayed out. With the reversal for German arms well and truly underway, would the USA ever have come in?

And if not, then where would Stalin stop in 1945?……

ncc1701e wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:56 pm

sPzAbt653 wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:40 pm I think for a game, there isn't much action in England vs. Germany. Who else on the map can provide an interesting challenge?

The USA maybe? And yet another question. If Hitler had not declared war on the United States, would the United States have declared war on Germany? Another grand strategy basic rules.

The Kaiser never declared war yet we still ended up at war with him. Easy enough to do: Just keep cranking up USA sea assets involved more and more in the Atlantic supply traffic. Soon enough there will be USA ships lost to u-boat action and the cries for war with the Axis will ramp up as well.

Not only for economic and democratic reasons (congress approval) I believe. Delay would be only about 'if we can win the war'. Remember 19th century was about nationalism, collapse of empires -not the colonial ones- ww'2 fascism was popular ideology not only related to Germany and Italy. Common language most important. USA would always support Britain in a war.

In my mod/scenario/game for Advanced Tactics Gold called GD1938, there is no rule that says USSR is at war with the Germans at a set time. There is no rule that the USA has to DOW or be DOWed by a certain date. People are free to act, within constraints, that are relatively free. In most cases these things happen naturally.

A book: "Icebreaker" by Viktor Suvorov

A Russian (dissident) perspective.

Basic idea:

The goal of Communism was to unite the world in a workers utopia.
Stalin thought this could begin with a war between USSR and Germany.
The division of Poland was a step towards this, as then USSR & Germany would have a common border.
Suvorov talks a lot about how the USSR stopped producing defensive type arms and began to concentrate on offensive long before even the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 9:45 pm
The Kaiser never declared war yet we still ended up at war with him. Easy enough to do: Just keep cranking up USA sea assets involved more and more in the Atlantic supply traffic. Soon enough there will be USA ships lost to u-boat action and the cries for war with the Axis will ramp up as well.

warspite1

Yes I think this is a real possibility. As we know Roosevelt realised the importance of the USA getting involved against Germany - even if many of his isolationist colleagues were unable to wake up and smell the coffee. So even had Congress proved difficult, FDR would no doubt have continued turning the screw until the Germans screwed up once too often.

I think much have changed between WW1 and 2 in terms of 'cultural boundaries' as USA already a power in 1939, They liked England more. Even Hitler did not want to go war with England. But perhaps war with both Japan and Germany only problem for congress or president.

mahks wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 3:30 am A book: "Icebreaker" by Viktor Suvorov

A Russian (dissident) perspective.

Basic idea:

The goal of Communism was to unite the world in a workers utopia.
Stalin thought this could begin with a war between USSR and Germany.
The division of Poland was a step towards this, as then USSR & Germany would have a common border.
Suvorov talks a lot about how the USSR stopped producing defensive type arms and began to concentrate on offensive long before even the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

I think it is not only about ideology. It is difficult to make any ideology popular without history in 19th power struggle between Russia and Europe.

After the war Stalin complained that "Together we would have been invincible". That implies that he thought he was really in a partnership with Hitler - at least till the West was totaled.

Their postnuptial agreement was rather contentious. Winner takes all I believe.

Lots of what ifs but one is constantly left out. What if Hitler had involved Japan in it's 1941 plans from the beginning? He did lament that he left them out. The Kwantung Army was more than eager to attack the Soviets. The Japanese had taken care of the logistics problems present in 1938 and 1939. Not only that but if they had delayed any offensive until mid July many of the Soviet elements would have already been shipped off to the west. Can you imagine the Soviet quandry if they had to fight on two fronts? Not to mention the majority of Soviet Lend Lease arrived via the Pacific on Soviet ships. The entire Southeast Asia and Pacific war would have changed drastically. If the Army had it's way instead of the Navy there would have been no Pearl Harbor and the U.S. involvement in the war could have been delayed far longer. Hitler wouldn't have to declare war on the U.S. and it would have been up to the U.S. to do the declaring. How long would that have been tied up in Congress? It could take months. Kantokuen was already in place and partially approved after the German attack.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 9:45 pm

ncc1701e wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:56 pm

sPzAbt653 wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:40 pm I think for a game, there isn't much action in England vs. Germany. Who else on the map can provide an interesting challenge?

The USA maybe? And yet another question. If Hitler had not declared war on the United States, would the United States have declared war on Germany? Another grand strategy basic rules.

The Kaiser never declared war yet we still ended up at war with him. Easy enough to do: Just keep cranking up USA sea assets involved more and more in the Atlantic supply traffic. Soon enough there will be USA ships lost to u-boat action and the cries for war with the Axis will ramp up as well.

Or just because of a telegram?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_telegram