Matrix Games Forums

7.5.1. Surrendering Due to Losing the Capital
Every turn after a country loses its Capital (or last Capital if it had more
than one) there will be a check to see if it carries on fighting. The chance
that it will carry on fighting depends on the number of units it has left
within its own borders, as follows:
§§ Major Country Surrender = 3% * number of remaining units within the
home country
§§ Minor Country Surrender = 6% * number of remaining units within the
home country

if I understand this correctly, assuming it still has above zero morale, a major power will never surrender if it has 34 land units or more left within its borders? Though if the power has less than 34 units within its borders, it might surrender even though it still has morale left (but no capitals)? But if morale goes to 0 or below, it will always surrender, regardless of the units.

Umeu wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 6:13 pm

7.5.1. Surrendering Due to Losing the Capital
Every turn after a country loses its Capital (or last Capital if it had more
than one) there will be a check to see if it carries on fighting. The chance
that it will carry on fighting depends on the number of units it has left
within its own borders, as follows:
§§ Major Country Surrender = 3% * number of remaining units within the
home country
§§ Minor Country Surrender = 6% * number of remaining units within the
home country

if I understand this correctly, assuming it still has above zero morale, a major power will never surrender if it has 34 land units or more left within its borders? Though if the power has less than 34 units within its borders, it might surrender even though it still has morale left (but no capitals)? But if morale goes to 0 or below, it will always surrender, regardless of the units.

Indeed what you describe is true. In a MP match I had with Pavia on YT a few years ago, the last Soviet capital of Perm was take many turns prior to the episode link I will post here. The USSR fought on turn after turn. The USSR had way more units then 34 when Perm fell. However, the NM loss was catastrophic, and he was able to start killing lots of units, bringing the number below 34. When that happened, the Surrender Checks had a chance of forcing an actual surrender.

Side note: I believe the USSR lingered for at least 5 turns after Perm the last capital fell, and I was trying to retake Kuybyshev back but alas failed. Also, a commenter on Pavia's channel, not knowing the surrender mechanics, figured I was cheating because the USSR did not surrender after Perm fell and the Axis had all the Soviet capitals. (Yes, folks jump to conclusions and cry cheat when they don't understand a game mechanic)
Here's a link to this classic match, where the USSR fell but the Allies ultimately won: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F51sIWp ... d&index=83

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 10:11 pm

Umeu wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 6:13 pm

7.5.1. Surrendering Due to Losing the Capital
Every turn after a country loses its Capital (or last Capital if it had more
than one) there will be a check to see if it carries on fighting. The chance
that it will carry on fighting depends on the number of units it has left
within its own borders, as follows:
§§ Major Country Surrender = 3% * number of remaining units within the
home country
§§ Minor Country Surrender = 6% * number of remaining units within the
home country

if I understand this correctly, assuming it still has above zero morale, a major power will never surrender if it has 34 land units or more left within its borders? Though if the power has less than 34 units within its borders, it might surrender even though it still has morale left (but no capitals)? But if morale goes to 0 or below, it will always surrender, regardless of the units.

Indeed what you describe is true. In a MP match I had with Pavia on YT a few years ago, the last Soviet capital of Perm was take many turns prior to the episode link I will post here. The USSR fought on turn after turn. The USSR had way more units then 34 when Perm fell. However, the NM loss was catastrophic, and he was able to start killing lots of units, bringing the number below 34. When that happened, the Surrender Checks had a chance of forcing an actual surrender.

Side note: I believe the USSR lingered for at least 5 turns after Perm the last capital fell, and I was trying to retake Kuybyshev back but alas failed. Also, a commenter on Pavia's channel, not knowing the surrender mechanics, figured I was cheating because the USSR did not surrender after Perm fell and the Axis had all the Soviet capitals. (Yes, folks jump to conclusions and cry cheat when they don't understand a game mechanic)
Here's a link to this classic match, where the USSR fell but the Allies ultimately won: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F51sIWp ... d&index=83

I didn't read anything about differentiating between unit types, so at a certain point it's worth training a batch of garrisons and sticking them in safe spots behind the lines to make sure you don't go below 34? I know this match was a long time ago but do you remember what Russias NM was in that situation? You seemed to have Leningrad and Baku left as NM locations still, so I'd venture to say at least 30%? It seems like Russia can buy quite a lot of time still by putting up a tenacious defense on the flanks. Axis simply can't breakthrough everywhere vs a well organized Russia, they must focus the main thrust of their attacks, and sacrifice strength elsewhere.

I wonder how much time Russia can buy in this situation by just evacuating 35-40 units to Novosibirsk & Irkutsk, assuming the USA rolls over Japan and they can't do much from their side.

There isn't a differentiation between units when a count is made of units within the country. (Here's another one for you: On Pavias YT channel, a viewer that was accussing me of cheating continued on and said that I was eXploiting the situation also by spamming garrisons lol. So he was aware of the surrender mechanic after someone explained that I wasn't cheating. Thing was, I wasn't spamming garrisons, but always bought them with extra mpps after my other purchases or expenditures through the whole game.

You are correct from my experience that long flanks can stretch the Axis out east
Interesting idea about taking Soviet units into Siberia (at least 34?) to keep the USSR from surrendering, but the USSRs NM will eventually go to 0 believe.

Still, I think this is realistic and the Bolsheviks would do this very thing to cling to power.

I believe looking at earlier vids would show that I looked at the reports, especially NM. I guess I didn't that turn and don't remember exactly, but I believe the USSR was in the 40s.

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 11:45 pm There isn't a differentiation between units when a count is made of units within the country. (Here's another one for you: On Pavias YT channel, a viewer that was accussing me of cheating continued on and said that I was eXploiting the situation also by spamming garrisons lol. So he was aware of the surrender mechanic after someone explained that I wasn't cheating. Thing was, I wasn't spamming garrisons, but always bought them with extra mpps after my other purchases or expenditures through the whole game.

You are correct from my experience that long flanks can stretch the Axis out east
Interesting idea about taking Soviet units into Siberia (at least 34?) to keep the USSR from surrendering, but the USSRs NM will eventually go to 0 believe.

Still, I think this is realistic and the Bolsheviks would do this very thing to cling to power.

I believe looking at earlier vids would show that I looked at the reports, especially NM. I guess I didn't that turn and don't remember exactly, but I believe the USSR was in the 40s.

not sure if they'll surrender easily due to NM drops. you can also travel into heartland siberia by rail, so that gives a few turns of respite. But Germany has to travel by foot etc, and much of it in mud and low supply, so it'll take them 6 months to cover the same distance. Of course they can still free up much of their forces to go elsewhere, but they have to send like 20 units at least I think. I tested the NM points for USSR, and they account for 50% of their NM. So as long as your kill/death ratio isn't so atrocious, it shouldn't make up the remaining 50%. And since we are talking about a Russia which has 34 units still alive, I think they'll be ok. Would be interesting to see how it plays out if anyone ever gets to try lol.

And as for the guy in comments XD well... I agree, I think it's quite believable that the Soviets would fight into the heartland of Siberia before surrendering. Though the Germans would likely offer terms, peace and partition Russia into 2 halves. East for Soviets, west for Germany?

Umeu wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:03 am

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 11:45 pm There isn't a differentiation between units when a count is made of units within the country. (Here's another one for you: On Pavias YT channel, a viewer that was accussing me of cheating continued on and said that I was eXploiting the situation also by spamming garrisons lol. So he was aware of the surrender mechanic after someone explained that I wasn't cheating. Thing was, I wasn't spamming garrisons, but always bought them with extra mpps after my other purchases or expenditures through the whole game.

You are correct from my experience that long flanks can stretch the Axis out east
Interesting idea about taking Soviet units into Siberia (at least 34?) to keep the USSR from surrendering, but the USSRs NM will eventually go to 0 believe.

Still, I think this is realistic and the Bolsheviks would do this very thing to cling to power.

I believe looking at earlier vids would show that I looked at the reports, especially NM. I guess I didn't that turn and don't remember exactly, but I believe the USSR was in the 40s.

not sure if they'll surrender easily due to NM drops. you can also travel into heartland siberia by rail, so that gives a few turns of respite. But Germany has to travel by foot etc, and much of it in mud and low supply, so it'll take them 6 months to cover the same distance. Of course they can still free up much of their forces to go elsewhere, but they have to send like 20 units at least I think. I tested the NM points for USSR, and they account for 50% of their NM. So as long as your kill/death ratio isn't so atrocious, it shouldn't make up the remaining 50%. And since we are talking about a Russia which has 34 units still alive, I think they'll be ok. Would be interesting to see how it plays out if anyone ever gets to try lol.

And as for the guy in comments XD well... I agree, I think it's quite believable that the Soviets would fight into the heartland of Siberia before surrendering. Though the Germans would likely offer terms, peace and partition Russia into 2 halves. East for Soviets, west for Germany?

Interesting ideas. It would be cool to see if this last ditch strategy would work. The Japanese maybe tempted to invade Siberia and start killing.

btw, I have seen some alt-history maps where Germany takes the A-A line (Archangel/Astrakhan) and basically leaves the rump Soviet state alone. The Japanese usually grab eastern Siberia.

Side note: Don't know if you are aware of this but in WaW, if Germany forces a surrender on the USSR, they get a DEC whether to take the whole country to the Pacific, or partition it with Japan. The line is at the Yenesei River in central Siberia. Interesting decision to make, depending on circumstances, such as Japan pressed for mpps/resources and the like. I don't think lots of folks seen this, as lots of folks playing Allies quit (unfortunately) when the USSR is buried in a grave......

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:05 am Side note: Don't know if you are aware of this but in WaW, if Germany forces a surrender on the USSR, they get a DEC whether to take the whole country to the Pacific, or partition it with Japan. The line is at the Yenesei River in central Siberia. Interesting decision to make, depending on circumstances, such as Japan pressed for mpps/resources and the like. I don't think lots of folks seen this, as lots of folks playing Allies quit (unfortunately) when the USSR is buried in a grave......

So much more generous than what the Germans got in the original un-modded version of the WWI game. If I recall accepting the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk just got you a chunk of Poland and some pocket money after years of struggle. Austria got nothing. But at least the Eastern Front went away.

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:05 am

Umeu wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:03 am

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 11:45 pm There isn't a differentiation between units when a count is made of units within the country. (Here's another one for you: On Pavias YT channel, a viewer that was accussing me of cheating continued on and said that I was eXploiting the situation also by spamming garrisons lol. So he was aware of the surrender mechanic after someone explained that I wasn't cheating. Thing was, I wasn't spamming garrisons, but always bought them with extra mpps after my other purchases or expenditures through the whole game.

You are correct from my experience that long flanks can stretch the Axis out east
Interesting idea about taking Soviet units into Siberia (at least 34?) to keep the USSR from surrendering, but the USSRs NM will eventually go to 0 believe.

Still, I think this is realistic and the Bolsheviks would do this very thing to cling to power.

I believe looking at earlier vids would show that I looked at the reports, especially NM. I guess I didn't that turn and don't remember exactly, but I believe the USSR was in the 40s.

not sure if they'll surrender easily due to NM drops. you can also travel into heartland siberia by rail, so that gives a few turns of respite. But Germany has to travel by foot etc, and much of it in mud and low supply, so it'll take them 6 months to cover the same distance. Of course they can still free up much of their forces to go elsewhere, but they have to send like 20 units at least I think. I tested the NM points for USSR, and they account for 50% of their NM. So as long as your kill/death ratio isn't so atrocious, it shouldn't make up the remaining 50%. And since we are talking about a Russia which has 34 units still alive, I think they'll be ok. Would be interesting to see how it plays out if anyone ever gets to try lol.

And as for the guy in comments XD well... I agree, I think it's quite believable that the Soviets would fight into the heartland of Siberia before surrendering. Though the Germans would likely offer terms, peace and partition Russia into 2 halves. East for Soviets, west for Germany?

Interesting ideas. It would be cool to see if this last ditch strategy would work. The Japanese maybe tempted to invade Siberia and start killing.

btw, I have seen some alt-history maps where Germany takes the A-A line (Archangel/Astrakhan) and basically leaves the rump Soviet state alone. The Japanese usually grab eastern Siberia.

Side note: Don't know if you are aware of this but in WaW, if Germany forces a surrender on the USSR, they get a DEC whether to take the whole country to the Pacific, or partition it with Japan. The line is at the Yenesei River in central Siberia. Interesting decision to make, depending on circumstances, such as Japan pressed for mpps/resources and the like. I don't think lots of folks seen this, as lots of folks playing Allies quit (unfortunately) when the USSR is buried in a grave......

yeah, I'm speculating on the basis that Japan is being held in check or killed by USA and pacific allies.

I don't think I have seen that even yet yeah, that's interesting indeed. But risky. If Japan gets knocked out, I guess that part of Russia gets liberated? Or what happens to it? Does it go to Germany?

Umeu wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:00 pm

OldCrowBalthazor wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:05 am

Umeu wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 4:03 am

not sure if they'll surrender easily due to NM drops. you can also travel into heartland siberia by rail, so that gives a few turns of respite. But Germany has to travel by foot etc, and much of it in mud and low supply, so it'll take them 6 months to cover the same distance. Of course they can still free up much of their forces to go elsewhere, but they have to send like 20 units at least I think. I tested the NM points for USSR, and they account for 50% of their NM. So as long as your kill/death ratio isn't so atrocious, it shouldn't make up the remaining 50%. And since we are talking about a Russia which has 34 units still alive, I think they'll be ok. Would be interesting to see how it plays out if anyone ever gets to try lol.

And as for the guy in comments XD well... I agree, I think it's quite believable that the Soviets would fight into the heartland of Siberia before surrendering. Though the Germans would likely offer terms, peace and partition Russia into 2 halves. East for Soviets, west for Germany?

Interesting ideas. It would be cool to see if this last ditch strategy would work. The Japanese maybe tempted to invade Siberia and start killing.

btw, I have seen some alt-history maps where Germany takes the A-A line (Archangel/Astrakhan) and basically leaves the rump Soviet state alone. The Japanese usually grab eastern Siberia.

Side note: Don't know if you are aware of this but in WaW, if Germany forces a surrender on the USSR, they get a DEC whether to take the whole country to the Pacific, or partition it with Japan. The line is at the Yenesei River in central Siberia. Interesting decision to make, depending on circumstances, such as Japan pressed for mpps/resources and the like. I don't think lots of folks seen this, as lots of folks playing Allies quit (unfortunately) when the USSR is buried in a grave......

yeah, I'm speculating on the basis that Japan is being held in check or killed by USA and pacific allies.

I don't think I have seen that even yet yeah, that's interesting indeed. But risky. If Japan gets knocked out, I guess that part of Russia gets liberated? Or what happens to it? Does it go to Germany?

Interesting you brought this up as there was a discussion about your very questions here that I brought up some years ago.

So, if the Germans decide to partition a surrendered USSR, and give Siberia to Japan, and Japan later falls, the Japanese annexed part becomes 'liberated'. Here's the interesting thing about this outcome. The 'liberated' part (Eastern Siberia up to the Yenesei River) is Soviet territory, and is still considered a Non-Cooperating Ally of USA/UK etc. Bill Runacre told me that the Soviet authorities would still impede any WAllie operations in their territory..so the supply malus as usual. I think this is realistic. (Towns give 3 supply and ports 5 to Non-Cooperating Allys)

This opens up other interesting dilemmas though, and I am not sure how it would works:

So, if earlier, once the USSR surrendered, and Germany did share with Japan (and Germany and Japan are also Non-Cooperating Allys), then German units moving east across the Yenesei River boundary would have bad supply. The towns to them max 3. No operating either. Same with the Japanese if they moved units west of the Yenesei River boundary.
The question I have is thus: USSR partitioned>Japan gets Eastern Siberia>Japan surrenders>Eastern Siberia (USSR) liberated. >Does this mean German units could start advancing in to the liberated USSR territories with no supply malus? I think so, but am not sure.

Someday, if I ever get so lucky playing Axis and Germany achieves victory over the USSR, as a sportsman and curious, I'll take the DEC to give Siberia to the Japanese, just to see what happens lol.
I think normally, most folks would just choose No to partition of the USSR. Safe bet anyways, as the Luftwaffe could lend support out of the Vladivostok area for example to the Japanese if their Home Island were under threat.
But why play safe? Sometimes the wild wazoo choices are far more fun.

IIRC the Japanese section doesn't and cannot get partisans.