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Manpower of the current (Heeres-) Pioneer Bats are too high for late 1944. We seem to be missing a 1944 Pioner Bat TOE.

Current in game totals
41 Pioneer Bat: 948
42 Pioneer Bat: 948
43a Pioneer Bat: 990
43b Pioneer Bat: 1008

per 23.10.1944 planning

The Heeres Pionier Bat (mot) had 3 motorized companies with the Pz Gren squad organisation of 2 lMG per squad. ----755 men
The Heeres Pionier Bat (tmot) had 1 motorized companies with 2 lMG per squad and 2 companies with 1lMG per squad-----691 men
The Heeres Pioner Bat (besp) had 3 companies with 1 lMG per squad.----680 men


Heeres Sturm Pionier Bat (mot) mit "Goliath" , differences from normal TOE : -10 HMG, 22 SPW, 6 Flamm SPW, 60 Goliath ----900 men


The Heeres Pionier Brig (mot) had 2 Battalions with the (mot) organisation. ---- 1577 men
It seems a third Battalion was authorised as of 01.04.1945 at least in some cases.

The above is from Org Geschichte der deutschen Heeresartillerie, Spezialeinheiten der Pionier und Infanterie.

I see, finally the requested documents were digitalized.

check:
RH 15/1214
RH 15/1215
RH 15/934
RH 15/935
RH 15/944
...for possibly some new infos in Pioneers ...sadly no KSTNs amongst them, so all KANs, but one can derive some KSTN info of that as well.
....So now looking for random luck in other folders which are unnamed.

Wiedrock wrote: Tue Oct 07, 2025 7:20 pm I see, finally the requested documents were digitalized.

check:
RH 15/1214
RH 15/1215
RH 15/934
RH 15/935
RH 15/944
...for possibly some new infos in Pioneers ...sadly no KSTNs amongst them, so all KANs, but one can derive some KSTN info of that as well.
....So now looking for random luck in other folders which are unnamed.

Thanks. It seems clear the normal Pioneer 43 Squad should change to:

4 x K98
1 x K98 w. ZF
1 x G41/43
1 x Rifle Grenade
1 x Hand Grenade
1 x Flamethrower
1 x Satchel Charge
1 x lMG
2 x MP40
1 x Panzerfaust


712 Pionerkompanie (mot) is in RH15/1214 Page 90 for 1.4.44 and 1.6.44, RH15/935 for 1.11.43:

- already had 2 lMG per Squad, probably there needs to be an analogue to the Panzer Pionier Kp without the SPW for Motorised units going back to beginning of the war.

- Geb Pionier Bat is schown to have at least one Pionier Kp (mot)
- Pionier Bat (tmot) having one (mot) Kp is also schown

716 Pionierkompanie (mot) Taifun Page 196

MechFO wrote: Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:00 am - already had 2 lMG per Squad, probably there needs to be an analogue to the Panzer Pionier Kp without the SPW for Motorised units going back to beginning of the war.

Yep, that's about what I reported here I think.

Wiedrock wrote: Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:11 am

MechFO wrote: Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:00 am - already had 2 lMG per Squad, probably there needs to be an analogue to the Panzer Pionier Kp without the SPW for Motorised units going back to beginning of the war.

Yep, that's about what I reported here I think.

Thanks, so Niehorster thinks 1 lMG per squad for 712 Pioniers until mid 42 at least, but no confirmation.

MechFO wrote: Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:32 am

Wiedrock wrote: Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:11 am

MechFO wrote: Thu Oct 09, 2025 12:00 am - already had 2 lMG per Squad, probably there needs to be an analogue to the Panzer Pionier Kp without the SPW for Motorised units going back to beginning of the war.

Yep, that's about what I reported here I think.

Thanks, so Niehorster thinks 1 lMG per squad for 712 Pioniers until mid 42 at least, but no confirmation.

I think for Pioneers there's tons of uncertainties since (at least until now) the OKH's/Wehrmacht's KSTN collection folder Number 6 (Pioneers) is nowhere to be found (online at least - if it survived the war at all).

In the absence of KSTN's, strength reports are an alternative source of information

Here I found He Pio Bat 635 from 1.10.43

Soll 834 men, 37 MG (so must have 1 lMG per Squad, but still 4 spare MG somewhere).

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/7

Lexikon doesn't mention whether 635 is (mot) or (tmot). The below from 08.10.43 shows it is (tmot), so IMO the 712 kept the 1 lMG per Squad organisation until 1.11.1943.

There was also certainly was a manpower reduction in 42 or 43.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6

H.Gr.Mitte Pionier Units on 6.7.42

He Pio Bats

Mot: Lehr 2, 42, 47, 62, Geb Pio 85

Bespannt: 236, 632, 743, 746, 750, 751, 753


https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8