Matrix Games Forums

A punishing early game that collapses into a broken mid and late game is not an accident. It is a recurring failure mode of strategy developers who let streamers become de facto design partners.

The spectacle takes priority over the system. What streams well is not the same as what plays well, and for long-form strategy games the two are usually in direct conflict.

A streamer wants the first 45 minutes. Two or three episodes, no editing, immediate tension. If a developer is building a game meant to last under an hour, that all makes sense.

If, however, the game is meant to span dozens of hours, the result is predictable: an aggressively front-loaded experience and a rotting core as time progresses.

Fast, difficult, setup is obvious with action FPS games, but it is damaging in strategy titles like Shadow Empire. More so if the original design was not built around a beer and pretzels show game.

Streamers optimize for watching, not playing. They avoid dead air---at all costs. They avoid quiet planning, preparation moves, and any actions that aren't immediately apparent to the audience. Logistics is a constant streamer complaint because it requires forethought, contemplation, and issues results that are not immediate. Streamers shun the need for quiet thinking that actually defines good strategy play. No streamer wants to stare at a map for ten minutes deciding how to restructure an economy, reorganize formations, or prepare a logistics chain that only gives benefits 10 turns in the future (maybe).

Finally and most importantly, they do not finish games. When the pace slows and the systems demand patience, they quietly abandon the run and move on. No postmortem. No accountability. Just another series thumbnail with a dwindling view count over time.

Shadow Empire has drifted in exactly this direction. Over time, small changes have made the opening one to two hours harsher and more dramatic, while steadily degrading the tempo and play of the mid and late game. The tension was pulled forward; the long-term planning, fast early turns, and deep game was stripped out. I have heard slither streamers, including Battlemode (aka KingHalford), openly boast about their influence over Vic’s decisions and balance “fixes” to make these exact changes.

The result is a mid-to-late game that feels like a chore rather than a payoff. What was once a demanding but coherent long-form strategy experience now grinds under its own weight. Maybe the game streams better now, but it plays long-form worse.

Huh. I'll have to think about that. The game can grind as it goes on, true. I prefer a controlled early pace, screw excitement. Early expansion should be slow and hard. Later it should be slow and strategically dangerous. Historically, my games tend to run over 200 turns. Twice I have been over 500. I do not want a quick game or early conquest. Planetary domination should be long and complex. Excitement is a grinding 40 turn death struggle against a capable opponent, living in terror of nukes being unleashed or a third front opening, with the winner still facing a challenging foe(s). Your critique may have merit. The last few times I have played seemed...different. Especially early. Need to mull this over.....

What features/mechanics actually changed that you would point out as an indicator of this shift?

You say:

Over time, small changes have made the opening one to two hours harsher and more dramatic, while steadily degrading the tempo and play of the mid and late game

What changes? Can you provide some examples?

I certainly start many more games than I finish. Partly that's just the novelty factor, but I'll agree the exciting early game can give way to a slower paced mid to late game. I don't think the mid to late game is uninteresting, just that it takes a lot more time to navigate.

Generally, I think this type of criticism could be leveled at many Slitherine, Paradox, and similar strategy games. How many games of War in the Pacific get to 1945 let alone 1943? How many games of War in the East end in Berlin? How many games of Stellaris get to the late game crisis phase? The early game is dynamic. Possibilities are open.

On the topic of streamers, sure, they aren't always playing in a strategically good way or building sufficient logistics - this annoys me enough I usually don't watch their streams or videos of Shadow Empire - but I'm curious what you feel has changed as a result of their (questionable) influence? It's not like SE is a very streamable game anyhow, lol.

You mention logistics, and sure, SE content creators complain about logistics a lot, but what has Vic changed? As far as I can think of right now, the biggest is the "Midcore logistics" checkbox, which is entirely optional. There have been some tweaks here and there to ammunition for units, there was the tweak that allowed you to upgrade rail to high speed rail without building separate infrastructure. To my knowledge all of the rest of the logistics system remains almost the same as it was several years ago. Perhaps I'm missing something that really bothers you, but I'm struggling to see that logistics has changed much.

It seems to me that economy restructuring and formation reorganizing have not fundamentally changed either in the past year or two, other than the ability to dabble in new unit template creation. What has changed that bothers you? If the answer is that streamers don't engage with the mechanics, that's the streamer's problem isn't it?

On the other hand, I feel that at least some of the changes that have been made to the early game are really positive compared to how it used to be. For example, I always play tech level 3 starts and it used to be dreadfully dull if you got unlucky on a tech 3 start. There used to be no way to generate early power other than power plant and solar techs, even more limited (and not expandable) mines, and a lack of useful early economic stratagems. I lobbied Vic for more options to generate IP on a tech 3 start before you can mine enough metal to build your first industry level. I think these are good changes that make early turns more exciting without impacting later game balance.