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Yesterday being Remembrance Day (Armistace Day, Veteran's Day depending on your location - November 11th), there were a lot of vets being interviewed on the radio. One in particular caught my attention and perhaps what he said might be of interest to SPWAW fans.

This particular man had been a loader in a Sherman tank. It was a fairly hot day in August, '44 and the crew were sweating inside their steel wagon. He said that he took his helmet off because the weight of it (anybody ever tried on a WWII helmet and you'll know what he means ) was getting too much for him. It was against the rules when in enemy territory but he just couldn't stand it anymore. He hung the helmet on a projection over the radio.

Since they hadn't seen any enemy for a while, he sat down on the deck to rest and get some air out of the cramped confines of the turret and chat with the driver. This left an open space above him in the turret where he'd normally be standing or sitting on a metal stool beside the port (left-hand) side of the gun.

Without warning, they were hit by what he called a bazooka but I'd guess must have been some kind of panzerschreck. The shot hit the side of the turret but must have been fired from a bad angle because it bounced off.

He said he was out of action for several minutes being stunned by the concussion of the round hitting the armour and the noise that deafened him so that he didn't know and wasn't able to get involved with what was going on. In any event, the rest of the crew got the enemy and he gradually came back to usefulness.

However, when he went to get his helmet, he said the helmet was basically a sieve and the side of the turret was like 'Swiss cheese' (his words) where the round had hit. The radio was also destroyed. He said if he'd been sitting where he was supposed to be, he would definitely have been killed.

So, for all those who have questins about the 'vulnerable location hit', crew kills but not the whole tank, and partial damage to some systems, this provides some answer. Apparently even with a 'non-penetrating' hit, there can often be significant damage inside the tank. An ATG round even glancing off can do a lot of damage and you can see why a crew might bail out if the damage either causes smoke, wrecks something important or gives them the impressions that there's another round just being loaded home into the weapon that fired the first shot and is still aimed at them.

Very interesting. However I'm gonna nitpick a bit So the turret wasn't penetrated but there was lot of interior damage? Then I'd assume the tank was hit with an AP round which ricocheted but caused spalling inside the turret. Schreck/faust rounds are so slow they won't cause this effect..unless they explode and penetrate thus spraying hot metal inside the turret. Also the 'stunned from concussion' suggests a glancing blow from an AP round.

Voriax

You could be quite right Voriax. The panzerschreck was only a guess based on what the vet said. Since he was stunned, it's quite likely he didn't know himself what it was that hit them.

The main thrust of the story though, was what it was like inside the tank and what the effects of even a 'non-killing' hit could be.

Great story, very interesting!

Thanks

adamo

Aye, a round doesn't need to penetrate to kill the crew.

One of the more common causes of non penetrating crew casualties was 'flaking' of the internal armour. This occurs when the round doesn't penetrate but the force of the impact causes metal fragments from inside of the tanks armour to splinter and bounce around the inside of the vehicle.

Yes, that's the 'spalling' that Voriax was talking about. Either the spall knocked off hit the crew, or it could hit something else inside the tank to make it explode.

Apparently, that's how the Boyes-ATR was supposed to work according to my father who got to use one on a tank in training. It seems incorrect in 7.1 that the penetration for the Boyes is '0'. I agree it should'nt be very good but it should be better than that. It should at least be able to take out HT's and light tanks. The round is after all, heavier than a 50cal. and it should be accurate enough to hit at a close range. I'm pretty sure the values are wrong for it.

arethusa wrote: It seems incorrect in 7.1 that the penetration for the Boyes is '0'.

I have it at 26 PEN in 7.1.

Goblin

arethusa wrote:Yes, that's the 'spalling' that Voriax was talking about. Either the spall knocked off hit the crew, or it could hit something else inside the tank to make it explode.

IIRC, the shockwave of a nearby (I mean really nearby) bomb blast could be enough to kill the crew at times.

Belisarius wrote:IIRC, the shockwave of a nearby (I mean really nearby) bomb blast could be enough to kill the crew at times.

That's true too. The concussion from the blast can burst blood vessels in the brain and disrupt other functions. Almost like getting hit on the head with a hammer.

I saw a photo once of a Tiger upside down just beside a big shell-hole from a naval bombardment. Anything that could flip a Tiger would have to be a heck of a shock to the crew inside. Some of those naval guns are big, p to 406mm.

That photo was probably taken during the opening phases of Operation Goodwood when the Brits tried to break out of (or was it into?) Caen. The British basically dropped so many shells and bombs in the opening phases that one Tiger tank (the one in your photo probably) was flipped over and it took their companions over 3 hours to rescue the 3 surviving members of the crew. The bombardment also drove one of the company commander's (can't remember his name right now) tank crew to commit suicide while another was driven insane.

I think you're right, it was Caen. I didn't know the rest of the story about 3 survivors but the photo was sure impressive.