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political points?
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:44 am
by pad152
Are political points use to move ships/fleets between commands? or just for troops / airgroups.
RE: political points?
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:35 am
by Drongo
PP's are used to pay for the transferring of airgroups, land units and bases from one command to another. They are also used to replace leaders.
Ships/TFs are currently not affected as they do not "belong" to any Command HQs. They are the game's free spirits.
RE: political points?
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:35 pm
by Brady
Then why did Kid mention neading to spend PP's to retain the British Fleat in the Far east?
RE: political points?
Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 pm
by Bulldog61
When a Britsh ship is required to withdraw you can withdraw the ship or expend PP's to retain it.
RE: political points?
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:18 pm
by pad152
When a Britsh ship is required to withdraw you can withdraw the ship or expend PP's to retain it.
Good, looks like a good solution to the British fleet issue, just save your PP's before using the British fleet.
Now the player has some control of the problem[:)]
Question is withdraw request based on individual ships or amount of ship points ( X number of ships)?
RE: political points?
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:35 pm
by pasternakski
I absolutely hate this. Control of Royal Navy strategic fleet assignments should be outside the player's control in this game.
The ships are withdrawn, on order of the Admiralty, to meet Allied naval asset needs in other theaters, particularly the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean. What are British forces there supposed to do in order to accomplish their tasks and goals? Throw political points at the enemy?
RE: political points?
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:49 pm
by mogami
Hi, Well one could say you use your PP to persude the higher ups that you need the ships more.
It takes a lot of PP to keep the fleet. The ALlied player will be PP short for the first year or so since he has so many demands for them. In order to move airgroups out of SRA PP, relocate landunits PP, assign/change TF leaders PP, change ground unit or air group leader PP, change controlling HQ of base PP. I think the withdrawl orders will be met or a PP penelty paid but unless you have a good reason for keeping a ship it is much better to make sure it exits on time.
RE: political points?
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:09 pm
by pasternakski
So where do you get these "argumentative PPs?" Either you can persuade Winny and First Sea Lord or you can't. Again, I think the decision is properly outside the player's control. You play the hand you're dealt. The game should tell you when ships are going to be withdrawn, and, for those who think this would be a convenient excuse to take them out and lose them, remember the VPs and that the game should require substitute withdrawals if ships to be withdrawn are lost. If no substitutes are available, the penalty should be in VPs - the only kind of "point" I think ought to be relevant in a game that squares one strategic military commander off against another.
RE: political points?
Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:10 pm
by mogami
Hi, The game does not order ships withdrawn by name. It orders withdrawls by type.
"Withdraw 1 BB 1 CL and 4 DD"
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:09 am
by Raverdave
The PP system is one of the best features I have yet seen in any wargame, and it effects BOTH players ! Relax Pasternakski ......you will soon get your chance to see it working in the "flesh" and THAT will be in your first PBEM game with me. I am gona kick your Red meatball arse!
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:40 am
by pasternakski
Sphincter says what?
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:28 am
by siRkid
ORIGINAL: pasternakski
So where do you get these "argumentative PPs?" Either you can persuade Winny and First Sea Lord or you can't. Again, I think the decision is properly outside the player's control. You play the hand you're dealt. The game should tell you when ships are going to be withdrawn, and, for those who think this would be a convenient excuse to take them out and lose them, remember the VPs and that the game should require substitute withdrawals if ships to be withdrawn are lost. If no substitutes are available, the penalty should be in VPs - the only kind of "point" I think ought to be relevant in a game that squares one strategic military commander off against another.
The PP British withdraw system was developed to add realism into the game. Let me ask how you would solve the following problems when it is time to withdraw a ship.
The TF the BB that is ordered to withdraw is in is making a decisive move on an enemy invasion fleet. Does it just pop off the board leaving the player hanging out in the cold?[:(]
Does the AI take control and move it to an exit point? Do you want the AI just seizing control of your ships in the middle of the game?
What if it gets sunk before it exits? Does it still meet the withdraw requirement?
What if three of the ships scheduled to withdraw make up the better part of a TF defending a critical point and half your fleet pops off the board?
If you make the player move the ship off the board, how do you ensure he moves it off in an efficient manner? How do you penalize him for not moving it off?[:-]
Most of the decisions we make are not just added in on a whim. There is a lot of thought that goes into each one. We feel that the PP system is the best way to handle the above issues and many more that I did not list when dealing with the British withdraw problem.
Hope this helps,
Kid
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:32 am
by denisonh
As a Theatre Commander, you have to pick and choose your battles. PPs depict this in my mind. As a subordinate, you can expend only so much "credibility" on issues with you boss.
My experience in the military seems to confirm this, as my time as unit commander made me take in account I couldn't win every argument with my commander (despite being right[;)]), but I had to "pick" my battles.
I could influence my boss expending the appropriate effort, keeping in mind that I had to choose carefully when, how, and how often I did so.
Damn Pasternakski, relax. (Are you expending PPs to get rid of PPs?
)
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:58 am
by pasternakski
My post anticipates and answers these questions (and now that I have won the election, I AM the people, and I'm always right, and I never lie).
"Notice" of withdrawal is one key that I mentioned. You get orders that HMS Black Pudding is to be withdrawn by such-and-such a date. You can't pull any cheeky strokes, because the VP controls make it unprofitable. You do have the allotted time prior to the withdrawal to have the ship complete its mission, then return to the port from which it will be withdrawn (to face eventual sinking by U-Boat or aerial radio-controlled bomb, or whatever, while participating in a campaign in UV MED, D@MMIT!). Finally, if you have failed to return the ship to its exit point, yes, it does "teleport" out of the game, and, if you have succeeded in getting it sunk, a replacement is designated - by the game, not by you - and you again have a compliance date before you.
I am not being militant about this (but be careful getting on airplanes or ascending to the top floors of skyscrapers), for one thing because I realize that the decision has long since been made on political points, but ... but ... but ... let's see, what was it I hoped to accomplish?
Oh, yeah - to express my opinion that political points are not a feature I would like to see in the game. Any more than I would like to see Vals carrying 250 kg bombs at the same time as 60 kg bomblets...
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:16 am
by denisonh
ORIGINAL: pasternakski
My post anticipates and answers these questions (and now that I have won the election, I AM the people, and I'm always right, and I never lie).
"Notice" of withdrawal is one key that I mentioned. You get orders that HMS Black Pudding is to be withdrawn by such-and-such a date. You can't pull any cheeky strokes, because the VP controls make it unprofitable. You do have the allotted time prior to the withdrawal to have the ship complete its mission, then return to the port from which it will be withdrawn (to face eventual sinking by U-Boat or aerial radio-controlled bomb, or whatever, while participating in a campaign in UV MED, D@MMIT!). Finally, if you have failed to return the ship to its exit point, yes, it does "teleport" out of the game, and, if you have succeeded in getting it sunk, a replacement is designated - by the game, not by you - and you again have a compliance date before you.
I am not being militant about this (but be careful getting on airplanes or ascending to the top floors of skyscrapers), for one thing because I realize that the decision has long since been made on political points, but ... but ... but ... let's see, what was it I hoped to accomplish?
Oh, yeah - to express my opinion that political points are not a feature I would like to see in the game. Any more than I would like to see Vals carrying 250 kg bombs at the same time as 60 kg bomblets...
Hmmm, advocating " teleporting ships"? Wow, that's realistic.
Once again, as the theater commander, the "Admiralty" needs some capability based on events happening out of your theatre (like in the Med for example) and has tasked you to provide something.
As a competent commander with the trust of the Crown, you argue your case to the Admiralty. If you have the HMS Black Pudding decisively engaged in an operation, but the HMS Cheeseball is available, why not substitute? More importantly, if the HMS Black Pudding is limping back to Karachi with 80 sys damage, why would the Admiralty want her anyway?
Why should the AI in its infinite wisdom make the decision without input from the theatre commander (Are you the official protector and endorser of the AI?)
There has to be a way to balance the player have unreal "political" capability with a commander's way of influencing strategic decision making (Hmmm, did Nimitz and King ever meet to discuss the war, and more importantly, effect Nimitz affect his decision making? I believe that to be the case)
[Drunk and Dyslexic is no way to go through life, but what choice do I have?]
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:16 am
by pasternakski
Nah, not "teleporting ships," but ships that become, as of the date of their withdrawal, someone else's to command (they need not be depicted on the map).
I am no apologist for the artificial stupidity. There needs be nothing more built into the game than a fairly regularized withdrawal (and, for that matter, re-assignment back into the theater) schedule).
Besides, HMS Black Pudding was far more witty than HMS Cheeseball. Everybody knows it where I come from.
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:37 am
by denisonh
ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Nah, not "teleporting ships," but ships that become, as of the date of their withdrawal, someone else's to command (they need not be depicted on the map).
I am no apologist for the artificial stupidity. There needs be nothing more built into the game than a fairly regularized withdrawal (and, for that matter, re-assignment back into the theater) schedule).
Besides, HMS Black Pudding was far more witty than HMS Cheeseball. Everybody knows it where I come from.
I guess it would be like hardcoding withdrawls from the Med for D-Day, even though the situation in the Med would not favor a or require a D-Day.
Something to look forward to in UV Med.
Hey, with HMS Black Pudding already taken, my choices were marginal
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:50 am
by pasternakski
Well, all in all, it's a difficult thing to figure out how to handle (RN ship withdrawals, not being witty, something I've never figured out). Mein kampf ist - er, umm, my plan is - to leave the poor dam*ed blarsted bug*ered designers to figure it out as best they can and design it so that I can buy it and come back here to criticize the he11 out of it.
"Political points?" Maybe "reassignment points" or "command points" would have been better. Oh, well.
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:28 am
by pad152
Does the AI take control and move it to an exit point? Do you want the AI just seizing control of your ships in the middle of the game?
Speaking of teleporting ships, that's exactly what happened in PacWar! Ships would just disapear from your task force in the middle of an operation. You could never ever trust using the Bristish fleet because of this.
I think this PP method is the second best feature, next to including float planes on subs.[;)]
RE: political points?
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:29 pm
by Rainerle
How much damage may a ship have to be sent away ?