Matrix Games Forums

This is purely my opinion, but I always had certain reservations about playing as the Germans--sure, I admire their weapons, their sharp uniforms, their so-cool looking tanks, but it was always a guilty pleasure. For obvious reasons, it was always questionable to identify with these guys. However, after watching the Band of Brothers episode "Why We Fight", it really hit me. I know the history of the Holocaust, but this just brought it home to me. I will no longer play as the Germans, period. However, this does not mean that I disrespect the average German landser--

In the last few years I've increasingly been attracted to my own countrymen as warriors, for many reasons. I'm a Democrat, and basically a pacifist, but I am very proud of our military history, and I have become a big time fan of the Marine Corps.

I'm the forum moderator, and I'm supposed to keep my opinions to myself, but in this case I want to make my position clear. Every nation in this database , all 27 of them, deserve to be played. They all played their part in the largest conflict of the 20th Century.

I'm an unabashed American patriot, but I will not ridicule or denigrate the soldiers of any nation that participated in this war. They all fought for their countries and their brothers in arms, so they all deserve recognition.

Addendum: after playing repeated test battles as the USMC against the Japanese in 8.2, you can't help but admire their fighting abilities.
Nevertheless, I have no compunctions about killing them.
Banzai THIS, Tojo!

I fail to see how one group who commits atrocities is any better than another, and I also fail to see how it connects to a game...

If you won't play the Germans, then the Japanese are out too. Also, if you are a pacifist, then why not skip anyone who actually fought? It just seems really odd to make a random statement like this about a game you have played for years is all. You tipping them back tonight?


Goblin

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I fail to see how one group who commits atrocities is any better than another, and I also fail to see how it connects to a game...

If you won't play the Germans, then the Japanese are out too. Also, if you are a pacifist, then why not skip anyone who actually fought? It just seems really odd to make a random statement like this about a game you have played for years is all. You tipping them back tonight?

Eric, this is an opinion I've held for quite awhile. Of course, I also mentioned that racial animosity played a part in the Pacific War, but you wouldn't bring that up, would you?

As for the other, Eric, yup, drunken moderator alert


Goblin

Eric, that's a ridiculous satement. As for the USA and USMC, we were attacked , and this required a response that happened much later. Do you want me to give you a history lesson?

Play them all[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

But if it makes you feel better then just say that your German forces are part of the " Old Army " that didn't really believe Hitlers propaganda, and just wanted Germany to return to glory. [;)]

I have no problem to play the Germans in a tactical game, even if I prefer the Russians and the Americans. I have more problems in game like TOAW where there are some scenarios about the East Front where you have units like the SS Polizei toprotect you rear against the partisans.

LaPalice.

Alright, guys, I apologize for taking advantage of my position to editorialize. I could just delete this entire thread, but I will leave it for now.
I am definitely guilty of sometimes letting my personal feelings get in the way of my better judgement, so forgive me for that.
With best regards to my fellow gamers,
Glenn

Personally I dont play as the Japanese.....

Maybe its because of their crimes, I dont really know. I just cant get into it.
I have read far to many books and seen way to many documentries on what they did during the and before the war years that have affected me, but most of all its their denial of crimes committed that really annoys me.

I know the Germans committed horrible crimes too, that cant be denied and I feel for the victims, I'm not just saying that either I cant imagine the horror of being shot and tossed into a pit or marched into a camp. But I can imagine the loss of family and friends and that is enough.

But as a youngster I was attracted to the Germans because they looked cool......That simple! It wasnt until later I found out what some of them had done but by then I was already well into my hobby and its one I cant give up, not now anyway. But I was never attracted to the Japanese in any way.

And on another personal note if anyone dosnt wish to play as any nation no matter the reason its their choice. I'm suprised so many Americans here want to be the Russians- hell during the cold war both the Soviets and the Yanks were willing to blow the world to hell.........
Basically its a personal preference......... whatever the reason.

KG, I have no problem with your comments.

interesting thing is, that most german professionel military leaders
didn´t want the war - okay they wanted to get rid of the effects
of the versailles treaty also they found it okay to get the rhineland
and austria back... but not so much more. but hitler didn´t allow
such thoughts, he had his means to bring more willing people under
his command... see the generals beck, halder, von brauchitsch and
much others.

here some info:

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Halder.htm#1938%20Plot

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/beck.html

http://www.govsux.com/conspiracy_to_destroy_hitler.htm

i mean you should not regard all germans as criminals
in these times.

Which comment was ridiculous, KG? A pacifist does not believe in fighting, for any reason.

Also, how did you take advantage of your position? I am getting more confused now...

I think Viking summed it up nice. Just play them all. Every nation commited atrocities. Every single one of them. I am sure you don't want to stop playing the game!


Goblin

My advice: when you see a thread like this, just say 'no'.[:-]

There just pixels, and it's just history, and it's just a mental challenge. I see virtually no connect with the actions of the people involved.

Now if I was to dress up in an SS uniform, and proudly parade through a Jewish community during one of their more important religious holidays, THAT would be different.

But as for playing the germans, well aside from the fact, that between 39 and 42, playing the germans is basically akin to playing the default easy side in a lot of wargames. They have all the advantages, and only when the wargamer reeeeeeeeally screws up does he actually have to care for it during the end game.

In a tactical game like Steel Panthers, the germans are almost always the defacto "easy" side.

I recently played the Overlord Campaign for Strategic Command as the Allied side. Now that is different. I barely won too. Playing the germans now same campaign against same human opponent, and it's a different ball of wax. Looks like I am going to get folded spindled and mutilated hehe.

I always pick sides based on my current level of interest in challenge level. It neeeeeeeever has one iota to do with the actual people from the actual history.

I was not a WW2 era german soldier, and I was NOT responsible for their actions.

To think I am in any way condoning their past actions by using them as a tool to study history, or as a simple mental challenge, is well just silly.
Ranks up there with people saying I am involved with devil worship when I play Dungeons and Dragons.

Come on man, listen to your argument. I sounds like pure nonsense

Methinks he is trying to screw up this community... [;)]

This is a tactical wargame - there are no politics, no civilians, no conventions, etc. I enjoy it as a game, and play any and all nations to gain a better understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the equipment that they deployed in the bit of history between 1939 and 1945.

Beyond the game itself, what I *hope*, is that games like this give people an interest in the history of the period so that we can all learn what did happen in the social and political spheres in the hope that none of us ever allow such a catastrophe to happen again.

I can not see how a pacifist can sit and play a mock war. The only way that makes sense iof you become a pacifist only during the time of war. At all other times you are not and do not practice what you claim to be. You should always be what you say you are. Not be selective when and at what time. Its the same with being a criminal. Then you are one even when you are caught.

I am not necessarily cutting KG down for his decision, I just am confused about it, and about the need to post it to everyone. That and the whole moderator/personal opinion/position thing. Not sure what that had to do with the price of tea in China.

I personally hate playing as the Philipines. They suck.[;)]


Goblin

My two cents. If anybody shouldn't want to play the Germans it would be me, being Jewish. But I see no problem. This is a GAME. It isn't even close to real life. It's a game and as Les says the units bear absolutely no resemblance to real people living or dead, even the ss units. For someone to say he won't play the germans in a game because of the holocaust is, imo, silly.

I am not cutting down erwin either. I just did not understand how you can say you are a pacifist and then play a barbaric war game, where the intent is to kill the other person. Even tho it is only a game, I believe if i was a dyed in the wool pacifist. I would play say a golf or fishing or a game like sim city not a war game.

The Germans are the most played nation in this game i think. Mostly for there neat weapons and the advantages they have in this game. I myself play all the nations regardless of there faults. It makes me think before i make a move. Granted i still mess up a lot. Mostly because i get impationent and believe i have the other side beat. If i stick to cautious and think slow not fast i do ok.

If you decide not to play the germans because of war
atrocities you should also stop playing soviets
as more people died in stalins gulags than in
nazi concentration camps.

I personally don't like playing russians and japanese
not because atrocities but because their style of warfare
is rather based on 'infanry is cheap and can die' than on
elaborate strategy. And as I am a pacifist myself I want
to see as few people die as possible, at least of
the side I am playing [;)]