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FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:54 am
by Luskan
This was posted in the development forum (and is on the new build of WITP that comes out tonight or tomorrow) so I thought I should pass it on (seeing no one else has!). Just thought many of you would be happy to know about it (since I know you are all eagerly awaiting the new AARs that are bound to come out this build or next build!).
Enjoy!
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There is a new option, "Vary Turn One", which if chosen, along with the "Historical First Turn" realism option, in scenarios 8 or 15, chooses one of four random openings. The opening has descriptive text, that will be displayed on the Operations report, immediately after combat resolution. This will function in one player games and PBEM games. Neither player may cheat in the PBEM version.
OPERATION OUTFIELD
If this random opening occurs, Kimmel sends forces to Midway, Johnston Island and Wake Island. These include ships and air groups. Some Allied submarines are repositioned. There is a very good chance that all groups and anti-aircraft batteries are put on alert, even if the December 7th surprise option has been selected. The idea is that Kimmel has taken the dispatches from Washington seriously and is spreading a force umbrella, to protect the Hawaiian Islands. Due to the odd, out of the way, path the Japanese take to Pearl, this won't work. Still, some forces begin the game in different places. In addition, there are some dispersal of Allied air groups, in the Central Pacific, Philippines and Malay.
OPERATION INFIELD
If this random opening occurs, Kimmel forms a surface fleet, which he keeps in the Pearl Harbor area and brings both carrier task forces close to home port. Some air groups are repositioned and put on alert. Some Allied submarines may be repositioned. In addition, there are some dispersal of Allied air groups, in the Central Pacific, Philippines and Malay. This opening usually produces a fierce carrier battle on turn one near Pearl Harbor.
OPERATION HOME PLATE
If this random opening occurs, Kimmel assumes the safer course to be pulling all task forces into port. Surprise is likely, and the Japanese are happy to find two American carriers in port, when they launch their attack.
DECEMBER 7th SURPRIZE
If this random opening occurs, the standard turn one is played.
For Your Infomation...
Michael Wood
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:01 pm
by Luskan
Shameless BUMP!
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:22 pm
by Drongo
Maybe they're all in shock.
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:30 pm
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Luskan
This was posted in the development forum (and is on the new build of WITP that comes out tonight or tomorrow) so I thought I should pass it on (seeing no one else has!). Just thought many of you would be happy to know about it (since I know you are all eagerly awaiting the new AARs that are bound to come out this build or next build!).
Enjoy!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a new option, "Vary Turn One", which if chosen, along with the "Historical First Turn" realism option, in scenarios 8 or 15, chooses one of four random openings. The opening has descriptive text, that will be displayed on the Operations report, immediately after combat resolution. This will function in one player games and PBEM games. Neither player may cheat in the PBEM version.
OPERATION OUTFIELD
If this random opening occurs, Kimmel sends forces to Midway, Johnston Island and Wake Island. These include ships and air groups. Some Allied submarines are repositioned. There is a very good chance that all groups and anti-aircraft batteries are put on alert, even if the December 7th surprise option has been selected. The idea is that Kimmel has taken the dispatches from Washington seriously and is spreading a force umbrella, to protect the Hawaiian Islands. Due to the odd, out of the way, path the Japanese take to Pearl, this won't work. Still, some forces begin the game in different places. In addition, there are some dispersal of Allied air groups, in the Central Pacific, Philippines and Malay.
OPERATION INFIELD
If this random opening occurs, Kimmel forms a surface fleet, which he keeps in the Pearl Harbor area and brings both carrier task forces close to home port. Some air groups are repositioned and put on alert. Some Allied submarines may be repositioned. In addition, there are some dispersal of Allied air groups, in the Central Pacific, Philippines and Malay. This opening usually produces a fierce carrier battle on turn one near Pearl Harbor.
OPERATION HOME PLATE
If this random opening occurs, Kimmel assumes the safer course to be pulling all task forces into port. Surprise is likely, and the Japanese are happy to find two American carriers in port, when they launch their attack.
DECEMBER 7th SURPRIZE
If this random opening occurs, the standard turn one is played.
For Your Infomation...
Michael Wood
This is all very very very interesting - thanks Matrix/2By3 !!![&o][&o][&o]
Leo "Apollo11"
P.S. [Edit]
ORIGINAL: Luskan
Phew!!! The banana survived the Crash of '04!!
You and your dancing banana... it brings smile to my face every time I see it... [;)]
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:10 pm
by David Heath
Let me thank Mike, Joel, Gary and Keith for taking the time to program this. This was somthing I wanted in the game for a while and we figured it would add a lot of replay value to the game.
David
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:25 pm
by Bulldog61
This was top secret! Now that you've told them....
Can't wait to try it out.
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:01 pm
by Mike Scholl
Will be quite interested to here more details on these as they become available.
It does sound like the only "historically viable" alternatives were left out---which was
the Enterprise returning "on Schedule" Saturday Night; or Kido Butai being "spotted"
and reported on it's North Pacific approach and turning back. "Home Plate" sounds
like an even more pro-Japanese "start" with the CV's not being out delivering A/C
to Wake and Midway, but we'll have to wait for additional details to be sure.
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:36 pm
by mdiehl
I think if a "Vary Turn 1" start is selected between human opponents the Allied player should be allowed to select which of the options applies.
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:42 pm
by Reichenberg
Awesome!! I really hoped for some alternative war starts......and voila, served by Matrixgames! Especially "Home Plate" gives the Japanese Player fun for a little bit longer time - before he starts to suffer.
And the best thing is: If you don't like 'em, don't play 'em - and nobody gets hurt[:D] There is still the editor to create everything you desire, or stick to historical first turn.
Uwe
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:06 pm
by Rendova
Sounds really great Thanks [&o][&o][&o]
Yes Homeplate sounds like the US will get thumped wrose then historically but Outfield sound like an improvment, at least now there is some Varitity!
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:16 pm
by Mr.Frag
I think if a "Vary Turn 1" start is selected between human opponents the Allied player should be allowed to select which of the options applies.
You would think that!
Support mdiehl's crusade, send email to
oneclickwin@2by3.com [:D]
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:30 pm
by mdiehl
Spoken like a true, lazy, "Guarantee a Japanese Win" Axis Fanboy parasite, Frag.
I don't see in that set of options something comparable to "2 US CVs caught in Port" (op home plate) only harming the Japanese... like "All the ships in the same places as they historically were but the radar report from Diamond Head is taken seriously and as a result Hickam, Wheeler and Ford Island airfields are void of US aircraft because they're all on CAP, and every ship in the harbor is at General Quarters with AA guns manned and watertight hatches secured."
So, that 'list" is pretty much a list of different ways the US fleet gets devastated. Only one of them ("infield") puts the US CVs in a position to attack, but if past experience with the UV combat model is important, I doubt that equity in losses will be a typical result from an early-war CV battle.
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:36 pm
by TIMJOT
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
I think if a "Vary Turn 1" start is selected between human opponents the Allied player should be allowed to select which of the options applies.
mdiehl
Then it wouldnt be a "VARY" Turn 1 option, now would it. This option does, certainly put a lot of uncertainty into the Japanese players plan. Option 2 could give you that USN ambush you been argueing for, for so long. Option 1 gives the USN a lot of flexibility to react. Only 3 would seem to be a definite negative for the USN. If the allied player could choose, then whats the point of 3, since no player would ever choose that option willingly. Personally I think this Vary turn 1 would be fun to play on either side.
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:42 pm
by Mike Scholl
There are an endless variety of "ahistorical start" options that COULD be offered.
My dissappointment is that most of the ones 2bu3 have chosen are at least mildly
Pro-Japanese..., and none of them reflect the most obvious historical possibilities.
Which are that Enterprise isn't delayed by refueling difficulties and returns to PH
on time (to be in port on the 7th), or, that the Kido Butai IS spotted sneaking across
the North Pacific and having lost "suprise" is forced to terminate it's "manuevers"
and return to Japan. Either are more likely than the operations proposed.
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:43 pm
by TIMJOT
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
I don't see in that set of options something comparable to "2 US CVs caught in Port" (op home plate) only harming the Japanese... like "All the ships in the same places as they historically were but the radar report from Diamond Head is taken seriously and as a result Hickam, Wheeler and Ford Island airfields are void of US aircraft because they're all on CAP, and every ship in the harbor is at General Quarters with AA guns manned and watertight hatches secured."
Actually if you read option 1 it does include a very high chance that all AA and airgroups will be on full alert. Plus many important fleet units will not be in harbor to be attacked. Leaving KB attacking a well defended half empty port while leaving itself open to counterattack. Two out of three of these options would seem to favor the USN more often than not IMHO.
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:49 pm
by Mr.Frag
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Spoken like a true, lazy, "Guarantee a Japanese Win" Axis Fanboy parasite, Frag.
I don't see in that set of options something comparable to "2 US CVs caught in Port" (op home plate) only harming the Japanese... like "All the ships in the same places as they historically were but the radar report from Diamond Head is taken seriously and as a result Hickam, Wheeler and Ford Island airfields are void of US aircraft because they're all on CAP, and every ship in the harbor is at General Quarters with AA guns manned and watertight hatches secured."
So, that 'list" is pretty much a list of different ways the US fleet gets devastated. Only one of them ("infield") puts the US CVs in a position to attack, but if past experience with the UV combat model is important, I doubt that equity in losses will be a typical result from an early-war CV battle.
I suggest you re-read them a little more carefully.
There are 2 bad for Japan (one massively bad) and 2 bad for Allies (none really bad) results in there.
Btw: Just for your info, I have managed to get Dive bombers increased in effect (a major boon to the Allies with their useless TBD), but we all know I'm an Axis Fanboy right? Hmm, wonder why I did that??? [X(]
Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:49 pm
by mogami
Hi, I'll test them but I'll never use them. As Japan I will not risk a 33 percent chance my CV are exposed to attack with their airgroups set to port and airfield attack. As USN I will not risk a 33 percent chance that my CV are in port.
RE: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:53 pm
by mdiehl
Hmm, wonder why I did that???
Two words: "Plausible deniability."
RE: FYI: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:00 pm
by Mike Scholl
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
I suggest you re-read them a little more carefully.
There are 2 bad for Japan (one massively bad) and 2 bad for Allies (none really bad) results in there.
ACTUALLY, FRAG..., I'm afraid that I would have to call getting 1/3rd of their available
CV's in the whole world caught in PH and blown to bits to be "massively bad" for the
Allies---probably THE most "massively bad" result available in the whole spectrum.
I don't see a 6:2 CV battle (especially with early war US airgroups) being quite as
scary as being caught in port with your "pants down".
RE: Alternate December 7th Start
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:08 pm
by Mr.Frag
Two words: "Plausible deniability."
Ok, I wore most of my coffee reading that one.
So just so I get this right:
(a) Anything I suggest to make the Allies stronger is simply a ploy to deflect people from catching on that I am actually an "Axis Fanboy"
and
(b) Anything I suggest to make Japan stronger proves I am an "Axis Fanboy"
and
(c) I have some master plan, having played the game farther then anyone else and magically know that my "Allied improvements" actually end up triggering some "hidden code" that 2by3 and I conspired together to put in the game to offset the inprovement.
and
(d) I was on a Grassy Knoll in 1963 [:D]