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I have a number of questions regarding the effect on the game of the Russians becoming activated:

How much does the Japanese player actually lose in terms of resources and victory points if he pulls troops out of Manchuria and lets the Russians in?

Are there Russian naval assets that allow the Russian troops to actually threated Japan?

Are there Russian air assets that can threaten Japan?

How much in the way of supply/political points do the Russian units have available to them?

If the Russians are activated, particularly in 1941/1942, do they take away from Allied supply and will they need to be supplied?

If the Russians are activated in 1941/1942, do they get additional units beyond the initial units on the map as the war progresses?

Are Russian units withdrawn in 1942 if they don't become activated?

I'm trying to figure out if the Russian threat really does threaten the Japanese player, or if it can be "ignored". In essence, can the Japanese player take advantage of his Manchurian troops early on or are the potential consequences severe enough to make such a decision unfavorable in the game?

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

If I recall correctly, Manchuria was Japan's major "domestic" source of Iron Ore, as
well as several other strategic resources. So it would be akin to abandoning all
hope of future production..., and probably not a good idea.

What I understand from post made by Testers in the past when adreasing simmliar questions is that.

To keep the Russians at bay the Japanese nead to keep a certain number of troops stationed in Manchuria, and I suspect Schaklen and the Kuriel Islands.

The Russians Historicaly Had Ships and Planes that could threaten Japan, but they did not Invade untill Aug. 45, when they did it was a freaking Blitz like nothing sean before, they sweapt through manchuria and all the way to the Yellow sea prety much and into Korea, to almost all the Kuriel Islands and Schaklen in a couple weeks.

One thing I am not to clear on is if they become available in Aug. 45 or not.

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

If I recall correctly, Manchuria was Japan's major "domestic" source of Iron Ore, as
well as several other strategic resources. So it would be akin to abandoning all
hope of future production..., and probably not a good idea.

That is true from the historical p.o.v., as well as the fact that a million or so Japanse "colonists" moved to "Manchuko" prior to WW2, but I'm asking from the perspective of the game mechanics.

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

ORIGINAL: Brady

What I understand from post made by Testers in the past when adreasing simmliar questions is that.

To keep the Russians at bay the Japanese nead to keep a certain number of troops stationed in Manchuria, and I suspect Schaklen and the Kuriel Islands.

The Russians Historicaly Had Ships and Planes that could threaten Japan, but they did not Invade untill Aug. 45, when they did it was a freaking Blitz like nothing sean before, they sweapt through manchuria and all the way to the Yellow sea prety much and into Korea, to almost all the Kuriel Islands and Schaklen in a couple weeks.

One thing I am not to clear on is if they become available in Aug. 45 or not.

What I am wondering most about is Dec 41/early 42. One of the alpha AARs reported on an attack by the Japanese player on the Russians, with very unpleasent combat results for the Japanese player. But what I am wondering is what would happen if the Japanese player just pulled "everyone" out of Manchuria in order to use them elsewhere when the rest of the opposition isn't very strong.

So part of what I am asking is how much of the depth that is in place for the rest of the Allied forces in WitP is in place for the Russian forces. If the Japanese player enables the Russian forces to be activated early by, for example, reducing troop strength in Manchuria in early 1942, does the Allied player have similar capabilities/requirements in using the Russian forces as he does for the other Allied forces?

So do the Russians have their own supply sources or does the Allied player have to send supplies across the North Pacific? (No easy task in 1942.) Can the Russian troops be used in amphibious assaults against Japan? Do the Russians have tactical bombers to use against Japanese targets? If the game point and resource point losses for Manchuria don't deter the Japanese player, and if the Russian forces can't be used to directly threaten Japan, than this could become a significant "alternate history" scenario.

BTW - if the good folks at Matrix/2x3 would like me to test this out for them, I'd be more than happy to consider a beta agreement with them...[:D]

Dave Baranyi

Mogami has posted a reply on the importance of Korea and Manchukuo in Japan's production capacity in the Mogami vs. Mr. Frag thread.

Does anyone know how the Chinese communists and nationalist armies are modeled? Or is there just the Chinese? I am just curious, since they fought each other when there were no Japanese around to fight. Later on they declared a truce, but they still hated each others guts.

Messing with Russia is just something you do not do. Period.

You will do whatever is required to stall them entering the game no matter what problems it causes for you. Triggering war means Japan will be removed from Asia completely.

Japan needs the production there to be able to play the game so consider it high on the things one does just to end a game quickly.

In on of the test games between Luskan and myself I decided to launch an attack on Roosha on the 8th of December just to see what would happen.......I recall that one of my divisions upon hitting the rooshan lines simply VANISHED. One minute it was there reporting that it was about to start it's attack, then nothing *poof* nothing they simply were completely wiped out. Mind you this was an extreme example, but the message was very very clear....don't fcuk with the Rooshans.[:D]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Messing with Russia is just something you do not do. Period.

You will do whatever is required to stall them entering the game no matter what problems it causes for you. Triggering war means Japan will be removed from Asia completely.

Japan needs the production there to be able to play the game so consider it high on the things one does just to end a game quickly.

I guess that I'll have to wait for the game to check this out. I realize that the Russian divisions in Siberia were tough and had already beaten the Japanese army a couple of times, but I am still interested in seeing if the troops and the rest of the Russian East are modelled in a manner similar to that of the rest of the Allies. Obviously, Russia in December 1941 was a lot different than Russia in 1945, so I'm interested to see if those differences are modelled in the game.

As far as the production goes, if that is the key factor, than so be it. I'm just curious about how much of a factor it really is.

Thanks for the comments -

Dave Baranyi

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

In on of the test games between Luskan and myself I decided to launch an attack on Roosha on the 8th of December just to see what would happen.......I recall that one of my divisions upon hitting the rooshan lines simply VANISHED. One minute it was there reporting that it was about to start it's attack, then nothing *poof* nothing they simply were completely wiped out. Mind you this was an extreme example, but the message was very very clear....don't fcuk with the Rooshans.[:D]

I remember that AAR - it was quite "educational". [X(] But what I am thinking of entails pulling the Japanese armies out of Manchuria. If the Russians can only mech around Manchuria and not effectively attack Japan, and if the production capability there isn't a seriously big factor for the Japanese, then that is a similar scenario to the UV Allied scenario of pulling out of NG.

On the other hand, if the Russian capability is modelled in 1941/1942 to be the same or similar to that of August 1945, then there is a problem in the game data that should be fixed.

Thanks for the reply -

Dave Baranyi

ORIGINAL: Pascal

Mogami has posted a reply on the importance of Korea and Manchukuo in Japan's production capacity in the Mogami vs. Mr. Frag thread.

Thanks - I'll dig it out and see what Mogami has said.

Dave Baranyi

An interesting point has been raised hear, and one I inquired about some time ago and never realy got an answer on. That being the size and oob of the Russian forces in the east, they veried during the war, and was woundering how this was represented in WiTP as well. I asume I-16's upgrade to Yak's or to La-5's later in the war, and that their Naval assests do as well? And Tanks guns ect...

There are 20 divisions worth of strength there, and these are REAL divisions, not China quality troops. These are the troops directly on the ground when the game starts. These guys will steam roll over what happens to be on the ground on Japan's side on the border, really the only thing that will slow them down is the simple fact that it takes time to move over the ground.

This whole question of "abandoning Manchuria and/or China" is strictly a gamey
mechanic at best. Japan pulled a larger tonnage of "vital war resources" from
Manchuria and Korea than she did from the SRA. If the economic model is cor-
rect, the loss of these areas would "crash" the Japanese economy even faster
than not capturing the SRA. If maintaining the "Northern Resource Area" isn't
just as vital as gaining the "Southern Resource Area", then the game isn't an
accurate potrayal of reality. I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't where the Japs
are gaining the "extra" shipping I keep noticing.

As for letting the Russians into the War unnecessarily, it's a silly notion. Having
some extra troops in New Guinea and Burma is hardly going to make up for al-
lowing the Russians to advance to the Straits of Tsushima. Even if they are no
threat to invade Japan for years, a few squadrons of the Red Air Force at Pusan
could make life for the Japanese Merchant Marine a living he11. And if they allow
some basing for the US (which Stalin could "swap" for more lend lease aid) things
could really get serious. Nothing the Japanese could possibly gain is worth the
real loss such a policy would have cost them.

Mike-

as i think you posted beofre am further i reiterate, the japanese would under no conditions abandon manchuko-the rest of china is a whole different story but they went to war over not losing manchuko-which they thought the Americans had told them to abandon as well when the final round of negotiations with Hull were underway.

Furthermore, there was just too much industry and resources in manchuko to take the risk of leaving undefended.

the Russian far east army was tough but once they knew the japanese would move south they had stripped alot of the quality divisions from the far east to stave off what was possibly defeat at Moscow. i doubt the russians would have commenced offensive operations with this left over force.

john

Beware the Rooshans J Campbell, even their stripped down divs will give any foolish IJN plyer a strong case of heartburn.

From my limited knowledge of the areas I believe Japan will pull like 75%+ of its resources from Manchuria / Korea / Manchuko... Where the SRA was mostly for oil and rubber. Losing control of either should be the end of Japan's production - at least in the later game, once all the stockpiles are gone through.

Xargun

Several months ago I was trying to convince WitP team that there is something wrong with Soviet OB for 41/42, if Red army can easily beat Japanese so early in war. I’ve tried to find hard data to back up my claims and create real Soviet early war OB, but I failed. Every source with OB on this subject uses old data which was heavily edited in soviet times and thus have no real value, although there are several sources, on particular divisions, which contain quite interesting information from recently opened archives, and this info have little in common with info published previously. Divisions of Far East front were paper tigers during ’41-’43, they were used as reinforcement source, their real combat value was close to light regiment equipped with obsolete weapons and very poorly trained men. With such forces, the very idea of advance into Manchuria in 1941-42 was a pure nonsense, the lack or resources made even defense of Primorie region quite problematic. Truth can also be found in various memoirs of former commanding officers of Far East front, unfortunately, as I said, these do not provide any certain numbers.

The Russians seemed to have no problems back in'39, cost the Japanese in excess of 30,000 men IIRC.