Matrix Games Forums

Hello! At last I got a spare time to have a good battle with SPWAW. I continued my campaign which I started more then three weeks ago, but after I decided to play some scenarios and was terribly dissappointed with scenario "Draining Dyhernfurth". I dont mean it is BAD by itself. No! I read the annotation-discribtion to the mission and found a words about the soviet soldiers singing and drunken... DAMN!! Sorry, but I didn't found another word to express what I think about that!
My grandfather was just a private of Red Army at the start of WWII. He defended the Moscow, took the Koenigsberg, Vienna, Budapest, Berlin, took part in destruction of Quantung army. At the finish of war he was lieutenant colonel. And now such words about Soviet Army. The things you are writing about are impossible! The morale oblique of my army was significiantly higher then oblique of fascists and others! We didnt kill the civilians, didnt marodeured in their houses and didnt make the "camps of death". The soldier of Red Army was Soldier the Winner and it is poor that you put down the oblique of your past allies!
Of coarse, now my country is in a big crisis. We destroyed yesterday our unique priseless "Mir" Space Station. Destroyed by YOUR wish, which was acted by our bertrayal look government. Now either the countries like Poland, Czech, Latvia etc. demanding the compensation for our annexion(?) of them! While we gave them an industry and the modern status... (I wonder if the past colonies of England or France will demand the compenstation from their past metropolies).
BUT! Our current status shouldn't give you an opportunity to humble us! We are still having a great weaponry and a big resource potential. Just look: the game Flanker-2 by SSI Su-27 versus your unknownforwhat famous F-117 "Stealth", 5 rocket launches - 5 stealth are falling into the ocean. And that is after your foolish propaganda film "interceptor"! Wait! In Moldavia and Bielorussia there are already socialistic governments came to rule, the Ukraine proamerican dictature of Kuchma is near the fall because of masseus disorders. The restauration of USSR will came from there and after we shall see!
But lets return to SPWAW. As I understood it has two favorites - US and Naziz! Yes! Either the name of the game says about such sympathy. I suppose, it will be much better if you will rename the game to simply "World at war". And also: the credits says that this game is dedicated to *all* people who died in WWII, so it should be much more neutral either because of its scale.

Sorry for the rudy form of this message but I am too appaled by this humble words.
Nevertheless, best regards,

ENO

Originally posted by ENO:
The morale oblique of my army was significiantly higher then oblique of fascists and others! We didnt kill the civilians, didnt marodeured in their houses and didnt make the "camps of death". ENO

(Sorry my bad English) Yes you did. Many Finnish civilians were killed by russians in WWII. Red-Army attacked to Finland without declaring war on 30.11.1939. They took many civilians to warprisoners for example near the border in Suomussalmi on first day of the Winter War. They were forced to do work in freezing forrests and many of them starved to death. Russians killed also many civilians by atacking with bombers to finnish citys.

In Continuation War (finnish name Jatkosota, 1941-1944) russian partisans attacked to many small finnish village and killed all civilians in those villages.

Hello,

No camps in the Soviet Union? You're joking right? And I suppose that the reports of Soviet soldiers raping German civilians are all false? And good old Stalin didn't murder just about every competent member of the officers corps in the 30's?

This thread surely belong in 'The art of Wargaming'...

Originally posted by Lars Remmen:
Hello,

No camps in the Soviet Union? You're joking right? And I suppose that the reports of Soviet soldiers raping German civilians are all false? And good old Stalin didn't murder just about every competent member of the officers corps in the 30's?

This thread surely belong in 'The art of Wargaming'...

I agree. And how about those about 15 000 polish officers which were killed after they were captured by russians...? And how about all russian soldiers who were captured on Winter War by Finns...? They were put to nice little camps by Stalin for next 5-20 years after the war. (I´m not sure did Stalin do the same in 1944 and in 1945)

Hi , mr. ENO ..I am sorry to say this but I respectfully disagree with your post...and I don't like your aggressive style and the propaganda you showed in your arguments.

You are talking about a very delicated subject that is called : politics ...

Well , since I have been here this is the first time I hear someone talking about politics...
While I can understand your point of view in when you feel offended by some contents you found in some scenarios on the other hand you become in the wrong pointing things only by your own perspective.
I know I don't allow myself to make a judgement about any other political beliefs than mine but your is a very bad behaved way to classify people here just as US or Nazi sympathizers..
An offensive way of speaking !
Wrong mr. ENO !
I am italian and you should not forget that you are not the only depositary of the Holy Truth..everyone here has its own ideology !

Your reaction if full of politics hate..all the things you said seem to denote a conspiration against your country..are you coming out from a movie of James Bond ?
I think it's not correct that you point out your opinion in such a critical stance.

It never happened that an entire army has been classified by episodes and so I would not be angry with a designer if he makes a scenario where Abyssinians draw italians as murderers..Pherhaps I would ask to him any reason for that..maybe in a private way..but surely I would do this before coming here and talking about the power of Su-22..

It seems to me quite childish such an attitude...Your grandfather had been a meritotious soldier I do not want to doubt about this..but is this enough to cry out that there never have been drunken soldiers in the Red Army ?
Please keep your politics out of here !
Posts like yours allow a german player to write here and cry out that 5000 women have been raped in Berlin in the last days of the war..by soldiers of Red Army...maybe anyone has never told you something like that..did anybody told you anything about Siberia or about the hundreds of polish military officers killed by the soviets at Katyn ?
When I read about fascists do I come here and cry about italian girls raped by allies maroqinian troops after the battle of Cassino ?
Sorry the list of omicides is so long that anybody should avoid to open any topic about politics !
War is not a game ..SPWAW is not a war...
I like to think that Knowing about a war is the best way to love the peace...
Play SPWAW and relax yourself ! or play not !

I never saw any political intent by Matrix Games or any of its affiliate to use SPWAW for political purposes
your are wrong Mr. ENO !

Evil has never been just from one side
If you want respect you have to deserve it !
so I think accusing anyone here is not correct..
I hope you will use a more moderate tone next time.

I am italian and many historians recognized that Italians are quite underestimated by the dominant english storiography
..obviously this is reflected in SPWAW especially as regards panic or suppression level experience and morale of IT units..
I don't think this is a way that Matrix has to make his own propaganda..but only an attempt to create a game engine that in some way would show that at least there were victors and loosers
In some way this abstraction has to be translated in the way units act and behave !
I would be a fool if I am angry for the same reason you had !

..and however the same best regards you gave us....(with or not nevertheless ????)
bah !

I take offense to your comments.You sond like a soviet communist!MY grandfather was a tanker in the 2nd SS panzer division.He was an honorable man and never murdered anyone.
Murder/Atrocities happen on all sides of war.You cannot blame one side.Im not a nazi but I have great respect for the german army.Hell you wouldnt have your AK-47 if it was not for the MP44 and your mig jets if it was not for the ME262.Your soldiers did plenty of raping and murdering of innocent german civilians and soldiers!Especially just because they had SS runes on their collars!Were not your commisars and guards units just as ruthless!Oh one other thing Stalin just as Hitler can kiss my ass!
And on another note how about all the poor germans that surrendered at Stalingrad that you drove into camps and murdered 90% of them!

Sorry I just get a little upset with Commies.

Rob

Perhaps you should read Alexander Solshenizyn
about "Gulag" and especially "Le livre noir du Communisme" published in Paris some years ago. Starting in the 20ies of 20th century in the Ukraine with the Kulakes and continuing later on there were murdered about nearly 100 Millions of People by Stalin and his Secret Police (without the victims of war) [EMAIL]null[/EMAIL]

Please, for all of us, this post belongs in the Art of Wargaming forum. I do not agree with Drainig Dyhernfurth and really do not appreciate the discussion of politics in a GAMING forum. Questions and responses don't belong here.

Perhaps you should read "le livre noir du capitalisme".

XAAL.

Originally posted by 7thDiv:
Perhaps you should read Alexander Solshenizyn
about "Gulag" and especially "Le livre noir du Communisme" published in Paris some years ago. Starting in the 20ies of 20th century in the Ukraine with the Kulakes and continuing later on there were murdered about nearly 100 Millions of People by Stalin and his Secret Police (without the victims of war) [EMAIL]null[/EMAIL]

but you dont't seem having upset with nazis.

XAAL.


Sorry I just get a little upset with Commies.

Rob[/B][/QUOTE]

Yep, I agree Bruce. Eno, if the depiction of your countrymen in this particular scenario bugs you, please, move on. There is little need to discuss the Stalinist regime or the current state of Russian armed forces. I'm not sure how you extrapolated the scenario notes into this long anti-West diatribe (although the Cold War mentality is amusing). If you're frustrated with the way Russia is treated in the international arena, run for office and change the world....but please don't insult everyone's intelligence with Russian propaganda that wasn't effective then and is simply laughable now. See you in Checnya.....

but you dont't seem having upset with nazis.
XAAL.

The post was regarding defending Soviet actions.I clearly stated Awful Adolf could kiss my butt.Doesnt that count.enough already.Its just a game enjoy SPWAW and leave this nonsense out.

Rob

Hi,

I probably shouldnt touch this topic with a ten-foot-pole, but hey, I like to live dangerously

First of all I do not wish to make lightof anything that was said by ENO by postulating that he was deliberately telling falsehoods... on the contrary, I am quite sure he truly believes what he has said.

Whether your nationality be Russian, Finnish, German, American, or whatever, there are PLENTY of falshoods we have been told by our governments, taught in our schools, and read in the press.

Let's face it, unless we have ready access to the truth, we are likely to believe what we are taught, hear, and read... especially if it is something that makes us feel better about ourselves and our country.

Lets consider this... The United States government (I'm sure) wold have LOVED to keep the whole Japanese internment thing a secret if they could. They would love to have everyone believe that we "fought the good fight" for the liberation of Kuwait (can you smell the oil?), and I know for a fact that they have done (and still do) things that the public would SCREAM BLOODY MURDER if they knew about. So has England, Finland, Russia, and every other nation on earth.

I have a close personal friend who served in the Red Army during WWII and later in Checoslovakia during the crisis there and he has not only admitted that atrocities against the German people happened, he admits he took part in it... and he is not the least bit remorseful, nor does he think he did anything wrong. He was taught that the Germans were evil and should be dealt with as cruely and harshly as possible. Could this have been an isolated incident? Sure, but I doubt it.

The Germans considered the Russians, Jews, and basically anyone that wasnt German as "untermensch" (sub-human)... so why should Germany be the only one that realized that if you teach your people to hate then they will be more ready to fight?

The British set up their own concentration style camps for German prisoners and were considerred some of the most barabric POW internments in all of WWII - you dont read much about that in history books.

The US and the British both had situations where surrenderring Germans were mowed down deliberately (sure it didn't happen in large scale situations and probably not often, but human beings are still human beings no matter what uniforms they wear).

The Japanese had a brutal history, so did the Chinese and the Italians... everyone did.

It's just that we are told what the government wants us to hear.

In the Korean war, Vietnam, and Desert Storm, the US government acted in colusion with other Allied nations to test out chemical weapons on our own troops - don't believe me? Join the military and see if one of the first things they have (read 'make') you sign is permission to test drugs and other agents on you without your knowlege or consent. Of course they didn't shell formations with chemical artillery or anything so severe... they simply had us (I was in Saudi) inject ourselves with agents that were supposed to inoculate us from Iraqi weapons - YEAH RIGHT! [and I guess Agent Orange was nothing more than a harmless pesticide]

When over half of my unit was puking and leaking from every orafice within a day, and we all went to different hospitals and were isolated (Something tells me this wasnt a normal inoculation).

Our schools tell us that the American Civil War was all about freeing the slaves, yet Abraham Lincoln himself said "If I could preserve the Union with slavery intact I would do it, if I could save it with slavery in some states and not in others I would do that too, if I could save it and abolish slavery I would do that as well"... he even went to the extent of saying that once the war was over he opted to ship ALL of the blacks to another country (Madagascar was mentioned)... is this what we are taught in our history classes? Hell NO!

Basically what I am saying is that based on what ENO has been taught and told by his nation, I don't blame him at all for feeling like he does. I personally feel that what he is saying is terribly incorrect, but no more so than what the majority of the German people truly believed when they were faced with the extermination policy of the Jews - not many were even aware or could believe it happened,

It is just an example of how effective propaganda and political ciriculum can be.

Just my two cents worth.

BTW, my opinions are my own and should be no reflection on ANYONE else,

Bob

Agree.

This topic should be discussed in the "art of wargaming" forum, not here.

XAAL.

Originally posted by DerSoldat:

The post was regarding defending Soviet actions.I clearly stated Awful Adolf could kiss my butt.Doesnt that count.enough already.Its just a game enjoy SPWAW and leave this nonsense out.

Rob[/B]

Incredible!!! Apparently you wholeheartedly swallowed the rancid propaganda spewed by the pathlogical liars that governed the USSR.

If you ever discover the extent to which you've been deceived, you'll be rocked to your very soul.

I just want say that I agree completely with Bob Wallace - he said it better than I could have. There is so much dirt in our American Closet that I won't get into what other counties have done.

And to add that anybody can create a scenario and adjust the units to work however they want to for any nation in the OOBs. When I do Italian scenarios they seem to do REALLY well. So if you don't like the scenarios out there - make your own - anybody can post to the Matrix Scenario Depot.

Also, if somebody makes a scenario - it is their interpretation of what happened - the game nor the Message Board should be held accountable.

Figmo

Bob, I agree....to an extent. I hope you don't think that the majority of Western nations, especially the United States write the textbooks used in high school???? Sure, there has been governmental influence (i.e. the South before 1970), but let's not get conspiratorial. Lincoln's comments were made in a certain context, and he certainly thoight slavery a great evil...yet he shared the basic consensus of the time that Blacks did not culturally mesh with the fabric of the majority poulation of the U.S.(thus the deportation schemes of which Madagascar was only one-see Liberia).
The difference between Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and other totalitarian states and democracies is that while our governments may not want secrets revealed, their reach only extends as far as they can keep the media out and information supressed. If investigative journalism was allowed in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, please point it out to me.
I don't buy the Nuremburg defense, nor do I buy cultural relativism....most of us are perfectly capable of knowing a right from a wrong (even if that is culturally influenced-is there anyplace where rape or theft is not a crime, or a wrong?), and while atrocities in war are excusable to some degree, what about in retrospect? I was brought up regarding the Soviet Union as great threat. Should I still do so? It just shows how sick war can get when it is ideologically charged, as the Nazi-USSR war was. Sad that the atrocities on both sides seemed 'justified' to those who participated.

I have move this topic to the Art of War.....