Matrix Games Forums

I know there are many out there that still think the great clash of civilization will be between capitalism and communism.But it wont. Russia has of course given up communism. China is more nationalist than anything, and while they're worth keeping an eye on, (and I'm sure the feeling is mutual) their survival doesn't depend on demise of the west. I beg to differ with anyone who thinks the US was ever "capitalist" by design. So why are our brightest wargamers still playing out an endless list of scenarios based on this conflict of superpowers. There's a new superpower in town, and it stretches from Morrocco to Indonesia, secretly sharing intelligence and research. One day, it will announce it has not 1, but hundreds of nuclear weapons, scatterred all over it's Islamic empire. They want nothing more than to see the US, CIS, and the PRC at odds with each other, as it has profitted them greatly over the last 60 years. I think it is time to aknowledge this new threat, because as they see it, their survival DOES depend on our demise. Our wargame and scenario designers need to wake up if we are to gain any insights through wargaming(not everybody's desire,I understand), and stop fighting the last war(especially the one that didn't happen).

ORIGINAL: macgregor

There's a new superpower in town, and it stretches from Morrocco to Indonesia, secretly sharing intelligence and research. One day, it will announce it has not 1, but hundreds of nuclear weapons, scatterred all over it's Islamic empire. They want nothing more than to see the US, CIS, and the PRC at odds with each other, as it has profitted them greatly over the last 60 years. I think it is time to aknowledge this new threat, because as they see it, their survival DOES depend on our demise.

No offence, but you are talking complete bollocks. [:-]

In order for me to take offense, you have to make a point. You obviously think I am somehow misinformed. I assure you I am not. You are welcome to disagree with what I say is occurring now ,but what has happened for the last 60 years is historic fact. One of us is indeed bollocks!

They can build all the A-Bombs they want but until they develop a delivery system that can overwhelm both our land-based missles as well as destroying our entire force of SSBN's, well then I would be satisfied losing a couple of our coastal cities as long as their Great Islamic Empire is turned into glass.

The problem with a missile is that it can be tracked, perhaps even destroyed( if you're an SDI fan). No, it'll come on a merchant ship into a US or UK port(perhaps even via an old diesel sub) and in the aftermath it'll be next to impossible to trace. So much for all those billions of dollars invested in SDI !

If you are talking about military sims believe me the big money is in just what you are tlking about.

Comercial games on the subject don't pay near as well as the governement sims.

e

That's good to know. It's important to note that once we've been attacked in this way our subsequent response will in no way grant us victory(a pyrric victory perhaps). Once we've allowed this to occur -we have already lost the critical battle. I don't see how one can equate vaporizing a billion moslems ( as if we'd even consider that) with some kind of victory. We'd never do that. The gloves(including the one over our head) would indeed come off. What're we going to do? Say eeny meeny miny mo, which moslem city has to go? We need to do something now, before this happens.

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Our wargame and scenario designers need to wake up if we are to gain any insights through wargaming(not everybody's desire,I understand), and stop fighting the last war(especially the one that didn't happen).

This is nonsense. Why in the world do you think the wargaming community is supposed to take on the responsibility of preventing an Islamic takeover of the world? I share your concern about the immenent danger confronting the Western powers but this is a hobby, not the United Nations. Do you really believe that creating wargame scenarios is somehow going to alter the course of world events? This is a frickin hobby, for crying out loud, not the Army War College. Besides, there is no way that we will be able to prevent a nuclear device from being detonated in one of the worlds's largest cities. It is going to happen one day and you can play all the scenarios you want and it won't make any difference. Sorry but those are the facts. They may have to try a hundred times but eventually it will happen.

Besides, I still like to explore the war "that didn't happen" and I resent you telling me and anyone else what games I should be playing and what I shouldn't. I don't need to play a wargame scenario to understand the threat to world peace. I read newspapers, watch the news on TV, and (this may astound you) I actually read books. I play wargames for fun, I don't play them so I'll somehow be able to stop armed conflict. That's just rediculous. Believe me, the one group of people on the planet that are most informed about this are wargamers. So don't fret, the hobby is in good hands.

How dare me. If we've determined that my way of wargaming somehow threatens or insults your way of wargaming, I think we're getting somewhere.

I highly suggest the temperature in this thread cool down a bit.....alright everyone?

ORIGINAL: macgregor

How dare me. If we've determined that my way of wargaming somehow threatens or insults your way of wargaming, I think we're getting somewhere.

Not sure I understand your logic but we are on the same wavelength about the coming threat. I just don't see how wargaming will affect it. And I still want to see some more games on that "war that never happened" cause it just might happen yet. And I'm certain about the Islamic terrorist nuclear threat. It will happen someday, and there is no way to stop it. Could be London, Paris, Moscow or any major city in the US. But it is certain to happen.

Now I have to address the moderator. He seems to think you and I are getting hot under the collar. I'm not upset, are you macgregor? Just some good natured bantering as far as I'm concerned.[8D]

ORIGINAL: VicKevlar

I highly suggest the temperature in this thread cool down a bit.....alright everyone?

Huh??? [&:]

Why does it always have to be weapons of mass destruction.

All you need is an army of geeks and access to the net.

If I wanted to shut down the US I would just do it with several hundred geeks living in the US supplied with cutting edge computers and the best net access imaginable.

We already know nothing is hack proof.

The last thing I would do is start fligging weapons that make sizable booms and wreck the planet's ability to support life.

Knocking out several key infrastructures through computer based terrorism is also likely a lot more brutally effective.

I am still able to recall how thrilling it was to sit here in the dark during that black out.

No access to a lousy loaf of bread because the store was closed.
No gas because the pumps were off. No this and no that and no the other thing.

You don't have to blow up a city to turn it off.

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Why does it always have to be weapons of mass destruction.

All you need is an army of geeks and access to the net.

If I wanted to shut down the US I would just do it with several hundred geeks living in the US supplied with cutting edge computers and the best net access imaginable.

We already know nothing is hack proof.

The last thing I would do is start fligging weapons that make sizable booms and wreck the planet's ability to support life.

Knocking out several key infrastructures through computer based terrorism is also likely a lot more brutally effective.

I am still able to recall how thrilling it was to sit here in the dark during that black out.

No access to a lousy loaf of bread because the store was closed.
No gas because the pumps were off. No this and no that and no the other thing.

You don't have to blow up a city to turn it off.

All good points and I agree except for one thing. You are ignoring the nature of the terrorists. Islamic extremist terrorists want vivid, shocking and spectacular results... like slamming two fully loaded passenger liners into the World Trade Center towers. You are right that it doesn't have to be a weapon of mass distruction, but nothing says it better and clearer than an atomic explosion in the middle of a major metropolis. Not to mention the long term contamination that comes along as a bonus. They don't just want results, they want scare the living crap out of everyone results.

Yes agree on the flashy point.

But what terrorist could resist enjoying watching the US rip itself apart in social amarchy if the power went off for over a month?

Don't think anarchy would not happen? I would not be so confident.

Easy to rise to it as a challenge when it is only a few days. Another matter when it isn't just a few days.

ORIGINAL: old man of the sea

If you are talking about military sims believe me the big money is in just what you are tlking about.

Comercial games on the subject don't pay near as well as the governement sims.

e

I can imagine , if they are willing to pay 45,000.00 for a hammer whats the going rate for a combat sim. [X(]

ORIGINAL: macgregor

I know there are many out there that still think the great clash of civilization will be between capitalism and communism.But it wont. Russia has of course given up communism. China is more nationalist than anything, and while they're worth keeping an eye on, (and I'm sure the feeling is mutual) their survival doesn't depend on demise of the west. I beg to differ with anyone who thinks the US was ever "capitalist" by design. So why are our brightest wargamers still playing out an endless list of scenarios based on this conflict of superpowers. There's a new superpower in town, and it stretches from Morrocco to Indonesia, secretly sharing intelligence and research. One day, it will announce it has not 1, but hundreds of nuclear weapons, scatterred all over it's Islamic empire. They want nothing more than to see the US, CIS, and the PRC at odds with each other, as it has profitted them greatly over the last 60 years. I think it is time to aknowledge this new threat, because as they see it, their survival DOES depend on our demise. Our wargame and scenario designers need to wake up if we are to gain any insights through wargaming(not everybody's desire,I understand), and stop fighting the last war(especially the one that didn't happen).

Gee Theres some games out there that you can use to sim such, Civ III conquests has islamic nations to play.. you could even setup "infidel" nations on one side, Islamic on other


[8D]

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Why does it always have to be weapons of mass destruction.

All you need is an army of geeks and access to the net.

If I wanted to shut down the US I would just do it with several hundred geeks living in the US supplied with cutting edge computers and the best net access imaginable.

All good points and I agree except for one thing. You are ignoring the nature of the terrorists. Islamic extremist terrorists want vivid, shocking and spectacular results... like slamming two fully loaded passenger liners into the World Trade Center towers. You are right that it doesn't have to be a weapon of mass distruction, but nothing says it better and clearer than an atomic explosion in the middle of a major metropolis. Not to mention the long term contamination that comes along as a bonus. They don't just want results, they want scare the living crap out of everyone results.

The very worst thing islamists could do is use nuclear weapons on
others, they would lose any sympathy whatsoever, the palestians would lose all support, If like NYC were nuked, I fear plenty of islamic people living in USA would get gunned down.

The world would get ugly fast.

What do you do with a mad dog? You shoot it

ORIGINAL: macgregor

In order for me to take offense, you have to make a point. You obviously think I am somehow misinformed. I assure you I am not. You are welcome to disagree with what I say is occurring now ,but what has happened for the last 60 years is historic fact.

I kept my response short and to the point, as a full reply would have very much in "Steakhouse" territory, not "general discussion" here. Hopefully Vic will indulge me ?

Yes, I do believe you are "misinformed", dangerously so in fact.

There's a new superpower in town, and it stretches from Morrocco to Indonesia, secretly sharing intelligence and research

By that, I assume you mean those countries whose population is primarily muslim, "Islamic empire" is something of a give-away. That's about the only thing I can see they have in common.

Now lets have a look some diversity among them. We have the secular Arab states, such as Libya, Syria, and Egypt (and formerly Saddam's Iraq). We have NATO and potential EU member Turkey. We have monarchies in Saudi and Jordan. We have an Islamic government in Iran, where it's people vote for reform whenever you are allowed the chance. We have Pakistan, at least governmentally an ally in the "war against terror". And we have the most populous Islamic nation, Indonesia, currently undergoing a remarkable transformation to democracy - where no Islamist candidate could even muster enough support to get on the ballot paper in the recent presidential election).

The majority of governments in those countries have as much to "fear" from Islamic extremists as we do, albeit the threat to them being in a different form... the idea that they are all in cahoots to build WMDs just because a majority of their population are muslims is completely absurd. There is absolutely no evidence to support it.

Islam is a religion of peace, or at least it is perceived that way by the vast majority of muslims. That has not been the case throughout it's history, and the spread of Islam via conquest was not uncommon. The spread of Christianity by conquest was not uncommon either. Islam has no organised structure, or "priesthood" as Christians would understand the term. There is no Islamic Pope, the nearest equivalent being the Shia Imams who have no influence whatsoever (theological or secular) over the Sunni majority. So who are these conspirators, if not governments or clergy ?

Your confusion, of course, is a result of the association of "Islam" with "terrorism". There is no doubt that "Islamic" terrorists exist. It should be noted that while a warped and twisted Islam may be used as some sort of motivator or incentive the "causes" which the terrorists pursue are primarily political, not religious. The Arab-Israeli conflict is, and always has been about land, not religion (the citizens of Israel could convert to Islam overnight.... the Palestinians would be no better off). bin Laden has his own political agenda.

Would Al Quaeda like to get their hands on WMD ? Of course. What terrorist organisation wouldn't like to have the ultimate threat available to them ? Such groups are a clear and present danger, and must be hunted down and destroyed. To do that you need the help and support of muslims, not conspiracy theories with no basis whatsoever. Do not confuse terrorists with governments or entire populations just because they happen to share (at least nominally) the same religion. If you want to worry about the most likely source of a terrorist nuclear weapon, make North Korea the opponent for "our boys" in your wargames.

ORIGINAL: macgregor

So why are our brightest wargamers still playing out an endless list of scenarios based on this conflict of superpowers.

Which games are you talking about? Did I miss something over the last five years? All I have ever seen is endless WWII games and scenarios.

[&:]