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Please note I am talking generally and not about the particular scenario.

I can't see any way that Japan can stop the US taking at least one of the three Marianas islands at some point in 1944. Once there, it's game over due to B-29 strategic bombing.

It seems to me that even if you managed to a) preserve a decent force of carriers with good pilots, b) stuff the atolls with your best divisions, c) mine the hell out of them, d) interpose your entire submarine force around them and e) throw in the rest of the Combined Fleet for good measure you're still going to get stuffed. I suppose best case you _might_ be able to stop the first try but it'll only take a month or two before the US juggernaut is ready to go again.

Anybody have a different view?

My UV experience show that you have of holding bases even in late 1943:
_ an airfield 9 with 400+ planes is necessary
_ mine the hell of the base
_ send tens of CD guns
_ and put as much troops as you can here

Planes are to try to resist the preliminary operations, once you see the big invasion coming, retire them to your next big base.

Ground troops, mines and CD guns are there to stop the invasion.

Keep your ships and subs away from the main US fleets and try to use them to hit cripples sailing back from the invasion theater. Or launch a CV raid against another area to sink some small US ships. A CV battle will always end in US favor but by sinking enough DD then your subs may have a chance to be useful.

So you may hold one spot or at least make it costly enough to the Allied player.

But like in UV you won't be able to hold every island like that and that is where island hopping arrives.

In Marianas, I can't see how you can hold the 3 islands strongly, so once one is taken, US LBA will arrive there and shut down any Japanese base around. So you're probably right.

I dunno, I haven't tried it yet. But is it really "game over" when the B-29s start their strategic bombing? I know bombing brings in Victory Points, but if Japan is still holding all those bases in the DEI and Burma, will that be enough? Won't the US still have to take more bases, kill more IJA LCUs, sink more ships, etc?

ORIGINAL: Grotius
I dunno, I haven't tried it yet. But is it really "game over" when the B-29s start their strategic bombing? I know bombing brings in Victory Points, but if Japan is still holding all those bases in the DEI and Burma, will that be enough? Won't the US still have to take more bases, kill more IJA LCUs, sink more ships, etc?

Sorry, I didn't mean the game ends at that point, just that defeat becomes inevitable.

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
In Marianas, I can't see how you can hold the 3 islands strongly, so once one is taken, US LBA will arrive there and shut down any Japanese base around. So you're probably right.

The point about the Marianas is that they can be built to size 7 and are in range for B-29 ops against the Home Islands.

You've made me think of something else though. To hold the Marianas you've got to hold the Palau group as well since the Allied player could come that way and use "conventional" LBA to pummel you into submission.

And then there's the Phillippines to consider. Not to mention China. B-29 capable bases in both those places too.

I think I'm going to just surrender on 1/1/44 lol.

Well, your target should be the Allied supply lanes, B-29 suck a lot of supplies.

And research and create as much heavy fighters (KI-45 and so non) as you can. I hope they can shot down B-29s sometimes. Bring back heavy AA to Japan.

Don't foget that B-29s also hit Japan from China. If you put too much of your force in one place a good player will bypass the stronghold and take a lighter defended airfield that is in range somewere else.

Have to hit hard enough in 41-43 that the US doesn't take bases within range until 45 then run out the clock.

I am only up to January 42 so I too am speaking theoretically.

By August 1944 Japan has lost the war and its just a question of time and casualties. This is the real challenge for the US -- to minimize losses. Japan has effectively moved to a static defensive. There are at least six islands in the Palau-Saipan groups (the US eventually used Ulithi to stage its fleet for subsequent invasions). That's just too many to defend with the forces they can commit to the sector. The US only needs one island.

The Japanese battle plan achieved the conditions that they wanted at Saipan. They wanted to bring the US fleet into a single hurclean battle that (they hoped) they could win because there were just too many US ships and planes to fight piecemeal. They combined all their carrier and land-based air into this single concerted effort. Unfortunately for them their good pilots were all gone, their planes were inferior and they got slaughtered en masse by a technologically superior and better trained navy. The battle of Saipan was the IJN's equivalent of a banzai charge and it died against a wall of US fighters, much like the banzai charges fell before the marine machine guns at Guadalcanal. After Saipan the Japanese never again had enough aircrew to field a carrier force (except as a decoy at the Philipne Sea).

You will have to prepare the marianas after the southern conquests, that is starting in 1942 if you want to hold them. China is not a big deal, since the allies cannot move that many supplys to china as B-29s need. He will break through somewhere eventually. The idea is holding him back for as long as possible, keeping your home islands out of range.
Therefore, think about a defensive line you want to hold, and prepare it.
Do not confront the allied CVs directly after 1942. you will loose. it isn't worth it. LBA and Kamikaze have to do.

ORIGINAL: DJAndrews

By August 1944 Japan has lost the war and its just a question of time and casualties. This is the real challenge for the US -- to minimize losses. Japan has effectively moved to a static defensive. There are at least six islands in the Palau-Saipan groups (the US eventually used Ulithi to stage its fleet for subsequent invasions). That's just too many to defend with the forces they can commit to the sector. The US only needs one island.

No, actually you need a size 7 airfield to fly a B-29 off of, without the whole additional op loss penalty, and only being able to carry an extended range bomb load as far as your normal range. Guam, Tinian and Saipan are the only islands that fit this bill, and even then they are just out of normal range of Japan. The only other airfields within range of Japan that fit the bill (and are possibly attainable in 1944) are Clark and Lingayen in Luzon. From there you are in normal B-29 range of Kyushu, with extended range up to about Tokyo/Sendai. I think there are some airfields on Formosa and Okinawa that can be expanded to size 7, but if the Americans take those in 44, you should just concede and start the next game

Also, to really use the HUGE American B-29 force, you have to pretty much get at least 2-3 of these bases. There are 20+ B-29 groups on the Allied reinforcement track, with some of them showing up in 1943! Most all of the groups have a 48 plane maximum TOE. Replacements are not scheduled to start until May, 1944, but there is a big R&D factory going.

Palau, Ulithi, Marcus and even Iwo Jima are too small to support B-29s normally, even if you max out the airfields. Iwo Jima is within B-17/24 range of Japan though. You can put B-29s there, but they would have to use extended range bomb loads because the field is too small, plus they would suffer an enhanced op loss penalty. So you would actually be better off attacking with B-29s from the Marianas. While you would be at extended range still, you would not have the enhanced op loss penalty from operating level bombers off of an undersized airfield.

So I would recommend pouring troops into the Marianas and Iwo Jima. And probably relocating those troops on the Bonins to Iwo somewhere around the start of the game. The airfield on the Bonins can only be built to size 4, not quite large enough for normal B-17/24 usage. Marcus is also too small for B-17s/24s, and is out of range of Japan anyway.

Palau and Ulithi are worth defending, but the Allies cannot hurt Japan directly from there. Those islands are only useful as stepping stones on the way to the Phillipines or Marianas.

And what exactly is the B-29 Range ?

Xargun

ORIGINAL: Xargun

And what exactly is the B-29 Range ?

Xargun

B-29
Normal Range: 20 hexes
Extended Range: 27 hexes

No, I don't know the payload, but it's over 14-15K pounds of bombs.

The range from Saipan to the Japanese coast (and Tokyo) is 21 hexes. I guess Japanese players are lucky there isn't a 60 mile "warp" between the Marianas and Tokyo. That would have been painful!!

I am playing the game as Japan in the 1945 scenario and in 6 days B-29 have racked up 700 stratigic bombing points. Its game over when the B-29's start hitting Japan.

ORIGINAL: esteban


No, actually you need a size 7 airfield to fly a B-29 off of, without the whole additional op loss penalty, and only being able to carry an extended range bomb load as far as your normal range. Guam, Tinian and Saipan are the only islands that fit this bill, and even then they are just out of normal range of Japan.
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Also, to really use the HUGE American B-29 force, you have to pretty much get at least 2-3 of these bases. There are 20+ B-29 groups on the Allied reinforcement track, with some of them showing up in 1943! Most all of the groups have a 48 plane maximum TOE. Replacements are not scheduled to start until May, 1944, but there is a big R&D factory going.

Palau, Ulithi, Marcus and even Iwo Jima are too small to support B-29s normally, even if you max out the airfields. Iwo Jima is within B-17/24 range of Japan though. You can put B-29s there, but they would have to use extended range bomb loads because the field is too small, plus they would suffer an enhanced op loss penalty. So you would actually be better off attacking with B-29s from the Marianas. While you would be at extended range still, you would not have the enhanced op loss penalty from operating level bombers off of an undersized airfield.

So I would recommend pouring troops into the Marianas and Iwo Jima. And probably relocating those troops on the Bonins to Iwo somewhere around the start of the game. The airfield on the Bonins can only be built to size 4, not quite large enough for normal B-17/24 usage. Marcus is also too small for B-17s/24s, and is out of range of Japan anyway.

I agree with what you've said, but not within the context of the original question (can the Americans be prevented from taking the Mariannas?). The Mariannas are out of range of the majority of Allied LBA. Once one island falls they are not (and consequently the entire group is no longer defensible). There were two objectives to the Mariannas campaign. The first and IMHO the most important was the acquisition of the next forward base or stepping stone on the line of advance. The second, and more long term objective, was the strategic bombing campaign.

In my first complete game, as I recall I got the first B-29 squadron in early April 1944. Game finished on 20th May 1944, with 9400-odd strategic losses to the Japanese. If you let the US get close, you're toast.

Formosa is a great place to base your heavies - you've got Taipei, size 7, temperate which puts the B24's within normal range of Kyushu, Taichu, size 9 malarial which will take the B-29s. Finally you've Takao (size 9) and Tainan (size 5) for putting the hurt on coastal shipping and bombing China.

Now, no self-respecting human player is going to let the US get to Formosa in early 1944, but even so, the US can get either of the good Marianas and it's then just a matter of time. If you counter that, then they'll go the China route.

If I was playing against an aggressive Japanese player, I reckon that even using Attu would be a viable option - it goes to size 5... though there are other options of course.

Cheers,

John

Was that a #15 campaign usecase? If so how do think the AI played the later part of the campaign?

ORIGINAL: usecase

In my first complete game, as I recall I got the first B-29 squadron in early April 1944. Game finished on 20th May 1944, with 9400-odd strategic losses to the Japanese. If you let the US get close, you're toast.

Wow, thats excessive. The Allies didn't get the B-29 offensive going until October 44 I think, at least as far as the first fire bombing raids. Before that, they had tried to recreate the European precision bombing campaign, but because of weather differences and the more dispersed nature of Japanese industry, that didn't work well.

It will be interesting to see if B-29s are "overpowered" in this game. 9400 victory points in a month or two makes it seem like they are, big-time.

ORIGINAL: Moquia

Was that a #15 campaign usecase? If so how do think the AI played the later part of the campaign?

Bluntly, it was hopeless. But then I write software for a living. A "good" AI is not feasible at today's state of the art. To answer your question: #15 historical difficulty (hey - it was my first game).