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The IJN Starts with 26 formed taskforces (not counting subs) I would like a OFFICIAL scenario where the Japanese can redirect/Reform Up to 26 Task forces (not counting subs) to attack new targets and the Allied turn 1 is skipped just like the current turn 1. So that a Non historic but Limited attack can be carried out. This will let the IJN as in real life have the inititive they could have attacked Manila or Pearl or somewhere else.

I would also like to put limits on some other things to simulate the shock and disorganization of the allies in the 1st few weeks of the war. Admiral Kimmal's and General Clark's removal of command.
I propose that when Dec 7 suprise attack is on all Allied HQ are restricted and no more than 20-25 allied Task forces may be created in Dec 1941 on Jan 01 everything sets to its setting now restricted HQ now stays restricted and the others are free to go and the task force limit is lifted. This would simulate the confusion and general unreadyness of the Allied military machine to go to war. As pointed out earlier I agree that you could not in real life sortie every ship in pearl harbor or any where else on Dec 8th and many not for several days and weeks later.

It does seem wrong that JP players can attack dozens of locations on turn one ruining the historical feel of the war. I wish there was a way of restricting this while allowing the JP player some flexability. From reading this forum I gather that most allied players are expected to basically do nothing on turn one(as is historical) but JP players have the right to run wild. Here are options I've thought about.

1. House rule- only 7 invasions in first 4 days.

2. Programming change- Tie JP surprise bonuses to load cost of troops using extended movement. i.e. If the load cost exceeds a certain threshold JP surprise is turned off. Maybe allow a toggle that allows specific JP TF's to not use extended movement. Maybe there could be a second higher threshold which gives bonuses to the allies. (We've seen you coming for 3 days and everything is on full alert. Many players would be upset with this but maybe it could just be a option like the other varriable starts.

BAH, what's wrong with attacking 30 targets in 2 days? As the allied player if this happens, you know the IJN player
cannot possibly support everywhere. You know KB is at Pearl, you know the route it will take home (within an area anyway). As long as you house rule no port attack except on 1 base only, you should be OK. If you allow an anything goes game (even with the allied player moving ships) you will probably still get creamed from the air by the IJN.
As a IJN player, in that type of game KB would be naval attack, every Nell and Betty set for naval attack, it would be duck hunting season in the DEI and Philipines. You would get your subs out of port and the area, but few surface ships.
Those baby CVL's are murder in the PI area.

By turn 4 you would have Nell's and Betties cutting off your retreat to Australia. KB may be split with part going to Malaya and the other to PH. Face it guys for the 1st 3 months basically there is very little you can do against the IJN.
Even the AI will run rampant for the first 3 months on you with a historical start, at least it did in the one game I played vs the AI out to Feb 42. With the rapid start style of play, you lose very few bases on turn 1, most on turn 2 and 3.
The historic Japanese may have limited themselves, but why should we in the game?

Well other people can play as they like thats why I suggest this as an option.

JP did not limit themselves, they were limited by reality:

1. 30 task forces headed toward dozens of allied objectives is 100 % guarenteed to be detected losing surprise across the board.

2. In real life JP task forces don't get to arrive on thier objective with full fuel tanks.

3. Unsupported or lightly supported transport fleets would never be sent deep into areas of enemy control because of the possibilty of catastropies.

Launching dozens of landings in a single day was simply not an historical option.

Well it may not SEEM realistic, but I have to agree that the ability to do it early on should remain. Simple reason is this... Our intel wasn't that good yet. We didn't completely start reading the IJN's mail until 1942 and even that wasn't until late.

So while their military resources started to wain in 1942, early on, the Japanese should pretty much have free reign. Something I see as very proper, AND historical.

couldn't a good new scenario start in 1937 maybe with the japanease invasion of china?


just a thought!

I agree with the original poster mostly. I would like to see a game where the Japanese can use surprise attacks against targets other than Pearl. A useful way to do this would be to remove the port attack surprise bonus from Japanese land based air on turn one. That way, Kido Butai can do a devastating strike somewhere, but that's pretty much it. The Japanese CVLs have too few planes to do a lot of damage to docked ships anywhere. And while the Japanese can put 100-150 Nells and Bettys into an attack on Manila or Singapore, they won't do gawdawful damage like KB can do on turn one.

In non-historical starts, the Japanese are allowed to do a ton of invasions (using the ability to fully load transport TFs on turn one), but that compensates for some ahistorical goodies the Allies get in return. The biggest of these is the ability to evacuate the Prince of Wales/Repulse group from Singapore.

I suppose, if you wanted a really historical start, within the confines of the current game, you would restrict the Japanese to use of their "pre-loaded" inasion convoys. Send KB to Pearl Harbor, and allow the Japanese player to blitz Singapore harbor from Saigon, to take out the PoW and Repulse.

Any PBEM player that imposes the house rule you guys want should also grant the IJN player with limiting the allied player to 1 operation every 3 months from 1943 onward.

Historically that is about what the Allies averaged. Have to keep 90% of your carriers in the same area of operations. Come on guys, the fun of the game is to see if you can do better than history.

The IJN had the resources and supplies to do it in history, they just did not do it.
If the IJN player want's to do a rapid expansion, then figure out a way to counter it.
Make him pay the price for that risk. I know I will not show up for a repeat Midway in June 1942 just because in history that is what the IJN did.

I have done the rapid expansion and also went against myself and figured out a few ways to make him pay for it. Sometimes very heavily. I am game for almost an anything goes type of game. That is what is fun for me, I like the pressure and anticipation of trying to figure out where and when to hit him. Move slow and try and cover to the maximum every landing, and I will have a good idea of where you are not. That is where I plan on being.

Sounds like what you want is a scenario where nothing is loaded at the start and everything is up to you. As far as imposing extra rules of what can and can not be done, that is generally something done between the players as there are just too many combinations possible.

If you are replying to me, I keep the preloaded TF's as is, I just augment my invasion list and
timetable.

If you are replying to me, I keep the preloaded TF's as is, I just augment my invasion list and
timetable.

Nope, the original poster. Hard to keep up with multiple patch versions and that nagging need to make Grand Admiral in SS [:'(]

Let me be clear as to what I'm saying. It is entirely implausable for Japan to invade 30 or so locations in the first few days AND RETAIN THE BENIFIT OF SURPRISE. Any game in which this happens cannot be considered remotely historical.

Operations such as taking Kandari in the first couple days are wildy, insanely unrealistic and would never have been even considered. They are only possible by exploiting the first turn special rules that allow teleportation of fleets.

As far as the game goes I have not suggested preventing anyone from doing anything. A house rule only applies to the two players involved. The other suggestion was only for an selectable option that would prevent this kind of play. As with the house rule PBEM options are agreed to by both players.

I do not see how it could not be historical. If the IJN, who were not restricted from transiting the waters of the DEI or PI (at least not that i am aware of) were to have loaded up a SNLF on 2 AK's or AP's and set sail 3 days PRIOR to 7 Dec 1941, they should have been able to reach Kendari from Palau.

Speed of advance 10 knots X 72 hours = 720 miles.

Use 14 knots and you get arange of 980 miles

Merchant ships look harmless, but you never know what they may be carrying.

The IJN had the capability to do it. The arriving with full fuel tanks you site really does not concern me too much. I have made the same runs after capture and still had a ton of fuel left over. Heck I could probably do a historical first turn with load out on day 2 and still sieze 30 bases by day 4 so what is the difference? Seems like the only worry you really have is the escape route you want gets cut off and there is basically nothing the allied player can do about it. I have already been there done it. Playing both sides so I knew what was where. I still 80% of the time get my head as the allies handed to me. You just do not have the power to project forward.

In short, for three months there just is nothing you as the allied player can do about anything the IJN decides to do. NOTHING. You can hurt small groups you may catch, but if the IJN shows up with a little support force you will lose.

The 1st turn teleportation rule is to represent the planning of the war start.
KB set sail mid to late Nov for PH I bet the invasion forces set sail early enough so that they arrive at first light on 7 Dec. Nothing more than that. Basically they arrive 80-100 miles from their target the evening of the 6 Dec and sprint in during the night.

ORIGINAL: moses
1. 30 task forces headed toward dozens of allied objectives is 100 % guarenteed to be detected losing surprise across the board.

Surprise?! The US had been expecting a Japanese attack for weeks; and when it finally occurred it was the location of the attack… Pearl Harbor… not the attack itself that was surprise.

ORIGINAL: moses
Let me be clear as to what I'm saying. It is entirely implausable for Japan to invade 30 or so locations in the first few days AND RETAIN THE BENIFIT OF SURPRISE. Any game in which this happens cannot be considered remotely historical.

Remotely historical?

How many Japanese players are going to ignore American subs attacking the flow of resources to Japan? Historically the Japanese did not protect their merchant shipping anywhere near the level a player will, because he has the benefit of history (or good sense) to know better. The average Japanese player knows that pilot quality in the game is a major issue, especially later in the war, and will takes step to offset that. Is there a Japanese player that doesn’t immediately start attacking in China, even though this is not what happened historically?

well of course the allies are going to lose the entire area within a short time. I just think the JP should actually have to conduct the invasion. The whole challenge for the JP player is to take his objectives efficiently and without undo losses. To do this requires some skill in supressing the allied air, sea and submarine forces. Or you can simply exploit the first turn special rules and take enough critical locations in the first couple days to make all further resistance futile. Where is the skill in that?

I realize as the allied player that I'm not going to stop the JP player anytime soon. But at least the JP player should be required to conduct the invasions and not just show up on the beach. If the JP player is skillful he can achieve all objectives with limited loss. If he is careless then I have the opportunity to inflict losses and maybe even achieve a local victory or two.

As for the Kandari example. Your 1200 NM from Palau your nearest base. You have no air cover. You are well inside the Dutch air envelope. Your moving through narrow straights in close proximity to allied air bases making detection almost certain. Significant Dutch navel forces are capable of intercept. You have no recon. No military commander would try it at least without a very large force. You want to try it great, but actually fight the battle. Load you guys up on turn two and sail them through the straights.

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

ORIGINAL: moses
Let me be clear as to what I'm saying. It is entirely implausable for Japan to invade 30 or so locations in the first few days AND RETAIN THE BENIFIT OF SURPRISE. Any game in which this happens cannot be considered remotely historical.

Remotely historical?

How many Japanese players are going to ignore American subs attacking the flow of resources to Japan? Historically the Japanese did not protect their merchant shipping anywhere near the level a player will, because he has the benefit of history (or good sense) to know better. The average Japanese player knows that pilot quality in the game is a major issue, especially later in the war, and will takes step to offset that. Is there a Japanese player that doesn’t immediately start attacking in China, even though this is not what happened historically?

Yes, this is true as well. While there is not a ton more that the Japanese player can do to protect convoys, as opposed to what his historical counterparts did, he can do something. I can see how the Japanese player can be much more active in China as well.

As for ahistorical Japanese "pilot training", you can choose to bypass some Allied bases and pay them regular visits with the Japanese air force. Most of those guys on small islands in the mid-Phillipines and DEI present no threat, and can't be resupplied.

Historically, the Allies bypassed a lot of large and small Japanese garrisons, but continued to bomb them to keep them suppressed. There is no particular reason that the Japanese cannot do the same thing, and the Allied player couldn't complain about the Japanese player using a tactic that historically was used by the Allies. It's just that in the Japanese case, the bombing serves an additional purpose.

Seems to me that "What If" is a big part of this game.

We play for the UNPREDICTIBLE not for a complete repeat of every event of the Pacific war.

Think of the Pearl Harbor attack. Evne the Japanese were afraid that a US ship or plane or Sub would discover to BEFORE it could launch an attack.

WITP allows that possibility to happen.

Adding random to this only makes it more interesting.

So think not in terms of "how can I accurately repeat every event of the Pacific war but rather think How can I use my TO&E to the maximum effect ?"

ORIGINAL: moses

well of course the allies are going to lose the entire area within a short time. I just think the JP should actually have to conduct the invasion. The whole challenge for the JP player is to take his objectives efficiently and without undo losses. To do this requires some skill in supressing the allied air, sea and submarine forces. Or you can simply exploit the first turn special rules and take enough critical locations in the first couple days to make all further resistance futile. Where is the skill in that?

I realize as the allied player that I'm not going to stop the JP player anytime soon. But at least the JP player should be required to conduct the invasions and not just show up on the beach. If the JP player is skillful he can achieve all objectives with limited loss. If he is careless then I have the opportunity to inflict losses and maybe even achieve a local victory or two.

As for the Kandari example. Your 1200 NM from Palau your nearest base. You have no air cover. You are well inside the Dutch air envelope. Your moving through narrow straights in close proximity to allied air bases making detection almost certain. Significant Dutch navel forces are capable of intercept. You have no recon. No military commander would try it at least without a very large force. You want to try it great, but actually fight the battle. Load you guys up on turn two and sail them through the straights.

Care to try and stop my rapid advance for a one week game. I never said my Kendari attack was unsupported. I will even allow you to sortie the Dutch and try and stop it. You can form up a surface warfare group and set their target to Kendari with do not retreat orders. I said SOME of my invasions are lightly supported some only by 2 DD's but just about every invasion has some sort of support in attendance.

Scen 15 non historical
Surprise on
Vary deployment
No port attack except PH
Allied damage on
IJN sub doc off

Allied special rule no movement turn 1 except what is stated above.

Let me know acproincDavidMitchell@msn.com

P.S. The Kendari attack usually does not arrive until turn 2 in just about every game I have tried.

ORIGINAL: moses
well of course the allies are going to lose the entire area within a short time. I just think the JP should actually have to conduct the invasion. The whole challenge for the JP player is to take his objectives efficiently and without undo losses. To do this requires some skill in supressing the allied air, sea and submarine forces. Or you can simply exploit the first turn special rules and take enough critical locations in the first couple days to make all further resistance futile. Where is the skill in that?

Resistance is futile. Most Allied players won’t commit major assets here and in many cases will try to savage what they can even though historically that wasn’t politically possible.

ORIGINAL: moses
As for the Kandari example. Your 1200 NM from Palau your nearest base. You have no air cover. You are well inside the Dutch air envelope. Your moving through narrow straights in close proximity to allied air bases making detection almost certain. Significant Dutch navel forces are capable of intercept. You have no recon. No military commander would try it at least without a very large force. You want to try it great, but actually fight the battle. Load you guys up on turn two and sail them through the straights.

What battle? The Japanese can have a +100 air craft carrier group in the area from day one, and as long as he doesn’t get too wild, can dominate the sea lanes. Match that with a smart expansion that captures location where long range bombers can operate and the DEI is over run quickly.

The Japanese expected a much higher level of resistance and more losses than they actually experienced, but a Japanese player knows better.

Historically: the Allied players should pour more reinforcements in to Singapore/Malaya while sending the fleet into the Gulf of Siam. Air assets across the region should be left in place to defend the troops… likewise naval forces. Land units should not immediately start retreating, but remain in place… allowing them to get mauled before starting the long retreat. Burma should be reinforced… but not too much…just enough to sacrifice some unit for no good reason… etc. etc. etc.

PS. Yet us be honest, if the Japanese had never done pearl Harbor, people would be saying how impossible it was to do.