Matrix Games Forums

Well I'm very sure I've found a pesky little critter we all call bugs... Everytime I have captured Hong Kong I look at the base the next turn and notice several hundred mines.. BUT... these are not my friendly mines, but enemy mines.. I bring in my MSW and as they clear mines the number on the base screen goes down.. So it is reporting exact numbers of enemy mines in Hong Kong. Not sure if this goes for every captured base - but as far as I know HK is the only base I have captured that had a minefield before capturing it..

playing scen 5 as japan
ver 1.21

Xargun

It is a bug that ALL bases report the exact number of enemy mines in them. I tested it by running a sub on a minelaying mission into a base and, sure enough, the number of mines reported went up by the exact number of mines my sub dumped off the previous turn. I hope this gets fixed in the next patch... not that I use mine much anymore since they were (mostly) silenced.

Are we sure it's really a bug?

I know if I was an admiral about to lose a base and I looked over at the depot and saw a bunch of nice, clean, shiny mines, I'd think evil thoughts and sow the crud out of them...

Then again, I'm really a fan of scorched earth.. leave nothing for your enemies [;)]

ORIGINAL: mongo

Are we sure it's really a bug?

I know if I was an admiral about to lose a base and I looked over at the depot and saw a bunch of nice, clean, shiny mines, I'd think evil thoughts and sow the crud out of them...

Then again, I'm really a fan of scorched earth.. leave nothing for your enemies [;)]

In my test I mined Pearl Harbor and the mines were visible to the enemy the next turn. The EXACT number of mines. No minesweeping missions were done. Yeah, I'd say it was a bug.
I can see if it works at a 'dot' base too when I play later on this weekend.

The issue is *not* the numbers ... the issue is do new mines getting added that increase that number get swept as if they are enemy mines? If so, there is a bug, if sweeping clears *just* the enemy mines leaving those you added unmolested, then there is nothing wrong.

The reported number can simply be looked at as you recovering the charts of the minefield when you captured the base or you gained the information by having a little chat with some of the prisoners [;)]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Well I'm very sure I've found a pesky little critter we all call bugs... Everytime I have captured Hong Kong I look at the base the next turn and notice several hundred mines.. BUT... these are not my friendly mines, but enemy mines.. I bring in my MSW and as they clear mines the number on the base screen goes down.. So it is reporting exact numbers of enemy mines in Hong Kong. Not sure if this goes for every captured base - but as far as I know HK is the only base I have captured that had a minefield before capturing it..

playing scen 5 as japan
ver 1.21

Xargun

I'm not sure it's a bug. In UV assumption was made that when you captured a base, you captured a map of the minefields as well. So the "enemy mine" icon remained, but the danger of one of your own ships running into mine was very low, compared to the danger before the base was captured.

I derived one of my favorite tricks out of this rule, though it could have been used only against uncautious opponents. If I suspected the base is heavily mined, but without significant ground troops, I'd try to capture it with Paras. Base will be mine (as in - belonging to me [:D]) and enemy minefields will almost immediatelly stop to be dangerous to my troops. Then I'd clear the mines slowly with my MSWs.

Now in WITP I guess something is diferent. Mines are counted.

But, in UV, if there were both your and enemy mines in the hex, your MSWs would clear first his mines, then (and only if you directly ordered them) your mines.

So in this case do what a real commander would do - use the capture of the base to send your sweepers to clear the enemy mines at their leisure. Then plant your own mines [:D]

Oleg

How about this one: I took the 3 ML that start in Kwajalian and sent them to Tarawa, they laid a minefield that numbered 1206 mines.
It has remained about the same for 3 turns.

Those ships should have laid no more than 300 mines.

Got a backup save showing the number of mines, and may have one before they lay them.

The player should NOT know the exact number of mines laid by the opponent. Says so in the manual. And capturing minefield maps is not a valid argument because one can lay mines at an enemy controlled base. The minelayers certainly are not going to put a copy of that map in the harbor master's office! [:'(]

My personal wild guess? Each base should have two fields for numbers of mines, one for Japanese mines the other for Allied mines. Either there is actually only one field OR newly laid mines are being put in the wrong field (probably being based on who owns the base instead of who owns the minelayers.)

ORIGINAL: dtravel

The player should NOT know the exact number of mines laid by the opponent. Says so in the manual.

Not until the base is captured (of course). Once the base is captured, assumption is made that all minefield maps were captured as well. Hey, I'm only quoting what 2by3 developer (I believe it was omni-present Mike) posted long ago on an UV board.

I don't know whether there were any substantial changes regarding this.

And capturing minefield maps is not a valid argument because one can lay mines at an enemy controlled base. The minelayers certainly are not going to put a copy of that map in the harbor master's office! [:'(]

As for the arguments being valid or not, you should discuss that with 2by3 people. [:D] I don't have any strong opinion regarding the matter, I'm just quoting what I heard from the developers on the UV board.

BTW, your logic still does not stand. Assuming you have maps of the offensive minefields you laid yourself (you do), and then you capture maps of enemy minefields, you should know "exactly" (sic) how many mines were laid and where. (In an ideal game world of course.)

But the game is very realistic IMO, as even after all that your ships *still* hit the enemy mines (so I guess those captured maps were not perfect), only less frequently then before the base was captured.

Suggested action is to clear the enemy mines anyway. Once the enemy mine symbol is gone (green mine icon, or red mine icon) you know all the remaining mines are yours, so you leave them unswept.

Overall, pretty realistic if you ask me, and if you know how to use the system. The "exact" number of mines is just a handy tool to see roughly whether the hex contains thousands or hundereds or only few mines. Lets not split hairs over that [:o]

O.

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

How about this one: I took the 3 ML that start in Kwajalian and sent them to Tarawa, they laid a minefield that numbered 1206 mines.
It has remained about the same for 3 turns.

Those ships should have laid no more than 300 mines.

Got a backup save showing the number of mines, and may have one before they lay them.

Again, game works as advertised. 2 of those 3 MLs are large minelayers of Okinoshima and Tsugaru classes, pride of every Mine Fanboy Club member (see my sig [:D])

- Okinoshima has 4 "rails" with 125 mines each = 500 mines
- Tsugaru has 4 "rails" with 150 mines each = 600 mines
- Small Tokiwa (Toshiwa class) has 2 "rails" with 60 mines each = 120 mines

I used "rail" instead of proper english term that escapes me right now. You know, those things that the mines are rolled down from...

BTW data above, from the game, correspond perfectly with available data regarding those ships in literature and on the web. So that's perfectly OK.

Alltogether 1220 mines. As mines deteriorate even when laid in shallow water (don't remember is it 1% per day or 5% per day or something like that - it's in the manual) - what you saw (1206 mines) is what you should have seen few days later.

Interesting thing is those 3 MLs laid combination of Type 93 mines and very small Type 4 mines (carried by that small ML) - it will be interesting to see how many Type 4s will go off once enemy enters the hex. There is some controversy regarding those very small mines, as some experts say they were not available until later in war, but that's well beyond the scope of this presentation [:D]

Guys, Mine Lovers Club is recruiting, come join the Dark Side! [:D][8D][:D]

Oleg

Personally I do not care if its a bug or a design feature. If the development staff knows about it and say thats how it is then fine by me... Just wanted to check..

Xargun

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

In my test I mined Pearl Harbor and the mines were visible to the enemy the next turn. The EXACT number of mines. No minesweeping missions were done. Yeah, I'd say it was a bug.

He saw the exact no. of mines, without capturing the base? How, and where (as in, where in the game interface) did he saw it?

If he saw exact no. of mines without capturing the base then it's a bug.

O.

Tsugaru has 4 "rails" with 150 mines each = 600 mines

Don't you just wish you had 10 of these puppies? Who needs changing aircraft? who needs more CV's? I just want more of these babies and some MLE's! [:D]

You said it brotha! [:D][:D]

It's not hard to guess what every member of Mine Lovin' Society does before planning PH raid or invasion of Khota Bharu. That's right - he converts some heavy AKs lying in Osaka into - ... (insert correct answer on the dots [:D])

O.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: dtravel

The player should NOT know the exact number of mines laid by the opponent. Says so in the manual.

Not until the base is captured (of course). Once the base is captured, assumption is made that all minefield maps were captured as well. Hey, I'm only quoting what 2by3 developer (I believe it was omni-present Mike) posted long ago on an UV board.

*sigh* But this isn't Uncommon Valor.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
I don't know whether there were any substantial changes regarding this.

And capturing minefield maps is not a valid argument because one can lay mines at an enemy controlled base. The minelayers certainly are not going to put a copy of that map in the harbor master's office! [:'(]

As for the arguments being valid or not, you should discuss that with 2by3 people. [:D] I don't have any strong opinion regarding the matter, I'm just quoting what I heard from the developers on the UV board.

BTW, your logic still does not stand. Assuming you have maps of the offensive minefields you laid yourself (you do), and then you capture maps of enemy minefields, you should know "exactly" (sic) how many mines were laid and where. (In an ideal game world of course.)

I think we're misunderstanding each other. If American minelayers drop mines at a Japanese controlled base, how do the Japanese find out the number of American mines?

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

But the game is very realistic IMO, as even after all that your ships *still* hit the enemy mines (so I guess those captured maps were not perfect), only less frequently then before the base was captured.

Suggested action is to clear the enemy mines anyway. Once the enemy mine symbol is gone (green mine icon, or red mine icon) you know all the remaining mines are yours, so you leave them unswept.

Are you sure that it is possible to get two different mine symbols? (Honest question, haven't seen it yet in my game but haven't gotten that far into it yet.) From the original problem report, it sounds like the answer is "no". It sounds like any newly laid mines are being added to the existing minefield even if it is an enemy minefield.

(Personally, I love laying mines in the other guys ports. I've been working hard at it in my AAR game. [;)])

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

How about this one: I took the 3 ML that start in Kwajalian and sent them to Tarawa, they laid a minefield that numbered 1206 mines.
It has remained about the same for 3 turns.

Those ships should have laid no more than 300 mines.

Got a backup save showing the number of mines, and may have one before they lay them.

Again, game works as advertised. 2 of those 3 MLs are large minelayers of Okinoshima and Tsugaru classes, pride of every Mine Fanboy Club member (see my sig [:D])

- Okinoshima has 4 "rails" with 125 mines each = 500 mines
- Tsugaru has 4 "rails" with 150 mines each = 600 mines
- Small Tokiwa (Toshiwa class) has 2 "rails" with 60 mines each = 120 mines

I used "rail" instead of proper english term that escapes me right now. You know, those things that the mines are rolled down from...

BTW data above, from the game, correspond perfectly with available data regarding those ships in literature and on the web. So that's perfectly OK.

Alltogether 1220 mines. As mines deteriorate even when laid in shallow water (don't remember is it 1% per day or 5% per day or something like that - it's in the manual) - what you saw (1206 mines) is what you should have seen few days later.

Interesting thing is those 3 MLs laid combination of Type 93 mines and very small Type 4 mines (carried by that small ML) - it will be interesting to see how many Type 4s will go off once enemy enters the hex. There is some controversy regarding those very small mines, as some experts say they were not available until later in war, but that's well beyond the scope of this presentation.

Oleg

I must have miss read it then. I just saw 150 a ammo and said to myself "thats 150 mines". All righty then.

ORIGINAL: dtravel
I think we're misunderstanding each other. If American minelayers drop mines at a Japanese controlled base, how do the Japanese find out the number of American mines?

<fake German> Ach, so! </fake German>

Yes there was some misunderstanding. If that's the problem then it's obviously undesired and unrealistic, ie. a bug. You should not see no. of mines your opponent planted in YOUR base.

ORIGINAL: dtravel
Are you sure that it is possible to get two different mine symbols? (Honest question, haven't seen it yet in my game but haven't gotten that far into it yet.) From the original problem report, it sounds like the answer is "no". It sounds like any newly laid mines are being added to the existing minefield even if it is an enemy minefield.

Its possible to get two different mine symbols in same hex. It's practical when you are clearing mines because when the enemy minefield symbol disappears, yxou know that all the remaining mines are yours.

Oleg

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: dtravel
I think we're misunderstanding each other. If American minelayers drop mines at a Japanese controlled base, how do the Japanese find out the number of American mines?

<fake German> Ach, so! </fake German>

Yes there was some misunderstanding. If that's the problem then it's obviously undesired and unrealistic, ie. a bug. You should not see no. of mines your opponent planted in YOUR base.

<points to the second post in the thread> [:'(]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

In my test I mined Pearl Harbor and the mines were visible to the enemy the next turn. The EXACT number of mines. No minesweeping missions were done. Yeah, I'd say it was a bug.

He saw the exact no. of mines, without capturing the base? How, and where (as in, where in the game interface) did he saw it?

If he saw exact no. of mines without capturing the base then it's a bug.

O.

I was playing the game against myself. Pearl Harbor bad its own mines in the hex, which show up on the base display. The next turn I (Japanese) dropped mines at Pearl Harbor. The next turn the number of mines listed at Pearl had increased by the amount I dropped there, meaning the mines being reported as in the hex were the sum of enemy and friendly mines. (actually, it was a few less due to decay, but you get the point).

Another related issue is that an enemy submarine always seems to be spotted if it is in a friendly base hex. That is a bug, I would bet.