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How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:19 pm
by Tankerace
I have heard many people say there are no mid ocean intercepts. This is complete bogus. In my game, I have just proven it.
The key to a mid ocean intercept is intel, and guess work and arithmatic on the part of the player. This is modelded really well, and I love it.
Ok, the first thing. To find the enemy. You must use a coastwatch, submarine, or naval aircraft to find a target on the previous turn. Coast watcher sightings aren't too reliable, I prefer air search as they give the most intel. Ok, below are three bmps explaining the strategy.
On the First one, a sub has found a lone ship, traveling at 5 knots (we assume for the excercise), and a course of SE. The other sub a few hexes away will simulate a Surface combat TF.
So, we take the course of SE. This is marked in white as the probable hexes the Japanese ship will travel. at 5 knots, in 12 hours it will reach 60 nm, or 1 hex away. At 5 knots for 24 hours, it will reach 120 miles away, or 2 hexes away. The Black dot thus represents the travel time of 12 hours, or where it will be at night fall. The white dot represents a travel time of 24 hours, and where it will be during the day.
So, you need to move your TF, with a patrol/do not retire order, into one of the corresponding hexes. Either the bottom one (the intercepting course of 270 degrees) to initiate a day action, ot the one of 310 degrees for a night action.
A Day action will be the most successful, as it will be hard for 1 ship to be found in a 60 nm hex. During an action in the Solomons when I tried this, I found the enemy ship with my cruiser/dd screen, but only 2 cruisers and 1 DD actually found the ship. This however was enough.
Another way to try it (and the least likely to work) is to see where the TF is on one turn, and check its position on the next. COmpute the direction it moved, and the number of hexes it moved, and then order your TF to the position where it will be. Of course, since it has already held course for 1 day, it may shift course, or whatever. Try both methods, and see works best for you.
Happy hunting!
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:23 pm
by Tankerace
EDIT:
Here is the AAR for the mid ocean intercet I achieved. While it was near a coast, the ships were not near their DH, I ordered them here, and they had no max react. This ship was one I damaged earlier (see the surface combat sux thread) and had guessed its course and speed.
You'll notice this is about 2-3 hexes NE of Guadalcanal.
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/30/42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 69,94
Japanese Ships
AP Eiko Maru, Shell hits 24, and is sunk
Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis
CL Detroit
CL St. Louis
CL Phoenix
DD Mugford
DD Ralph Talbot
DD Henley
DD Dale
DD Aylwin
DD Allen
DD Litchfield
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:24 pm
by Xargun
I have done this repeatidely against merchies fleeing from the DEI eastward. Just use a couple warships who can catchup and pass the merchies and plot out their course... Then jump ahead and wait for them...
Xargun
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:26 pm
by Tankerace
Bingo, that's it. I just posted this because someone asked how I was "Going to handle the no mid ocean intercept problem" in my Plan Orange mod. So, I figured this would help solve it.
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:29 pm
by RAM
this should be be put up between the other "important" threads, imo
.
Very nice stuff and job, tankerace!...I'll make good use of your idea
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:29 pm
by Larz6235
I guess in a PBEM game it is going to be time for Zig Zagging, instead of straight line running. [:)]
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:56 pm
by Caltone
Plenty of mid ocean intercepts, I have just watched Iron Duke track down and destroy a small TF ship by ship over the past week in our game. Very aggravating for me but you gotta hand it to the guy. [8D]
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:03 pm
by neuromancer
It can be done, certain amount of luck involved, and/ or hard work on the players part, but it can be done.
I think that puts too much on the part of the player (the admiral back at Pearl or Tokyo or where-ever) in my opinion, the task forces (on orders of the man on the spot) should deviate to intercept enemy groups more, including on the high seas, but I don't think this is a game brealking issue by any means.
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:33 am
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
I have heard many people say there are no mid ocean intercepts. This is complete bogus. In my game, I have just proven it.
The key to a mid ocean intercept is intel, and guess work and arithmatic on the part of the player. This is modelded really well, and I love it.
Ok, the first thing. To find the enemy. You must use a coastwatch, submarine, or naval aircraft to find a target on the previous turn. Coast watcher sightings aren't too reliable, I prefer air search as they give the most intel. Ok, below are three bmps explaining the strategy.
On the First one, a sub has found a lone ship, traveling at 5 knots (we assume for the excercise), and a course of SE. The other sub a few hexes away will simulate a Surface combat TF.
So, we take the course of SE. This is marked in white as the probable hexes the Japanese ship will travel. at 5 knots, in 12 hours it will reach 60 nm, or 1 hex away. At 5 knots for 24 hours, it will reach 120 miles away, or 2 hexes away. The Black dot thus represents the travel time of 12 hours, or where it will be at night fall. The white dot represents a travel time of 24 hours, and where it will be during the day.
So, you need to move your TF, with a patrol/do not retire order, into one of the corresponding hexes. Either the bottom one (the intercepting course of 270 degrees) to initiate a day action, ot the one of 310 degrees for a night action.
A Day action will be the most successful, as it will be hard for 1 ship to be found in a 60 nm hex. During an action in the Solomons when I tried this, I found the enemy ship with my cruiser/dd screen, but only 2 cruisers and 1 DD actually found the ship. This however was enough.
Another way to try it (and the least likely to work) is to see where the TF is on one turn, and check its position on the next. COmpute the direction it moved, and the number of hexes it moved, and then order your TF to the position where it will be. Of course, since it has already held course for 1 day, it may shift course, or whatever. Try both methods, and see works best for you.
Happy hunting!
very nice. the only question i have is how do you figure out how many knots equal how many hexes? how did you know 5 knots equals 1 hex? what formula did you use???
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:40 am
by Tankerace
5 knots * 24 hours equals 120 nautical miles a day, and since 60 nautical miles is 1 hex, that means 2 hexes.
You take their speed, multiply by 12 (for a night intercept) or by 24 (for a day intercept). The resulting number of miles you divide by 60 to find the number of hexes.
For example.
TF moving at 15 knots.
15 knots * 12 hours = 180 nautical miles by nightfall.
180 nautical miles / 60 nautical miles per hex = 3 hexes traveled.
for a day intercept.
15 knots * 24 hours = 320 nautical
320 nautical / 60 nautical = 6 hexes of traveled by the day phase of the turn.
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:42 am
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
5 knots * 24 hours equals 120 nautical miles a day, and since 60 nautical miles is 1 hex, that means 2 hexes.
You take their speed, multiply by 12 (for a night intercept) or by 24 (for a day intercept). The resulting number of miles you divide by 60 to find the number of hexes.
For example.
TF moving at 15 knots.
15 knots * 12 hours = 180 nautical miles by nightfall.
180 nautical miles / 60 nautical miles per hex = 3 hexes traveled.
for a day intercept.
15 knots * 24 hours = 320 nautical
320 nautical / 60 nautical = 6 hexes of traveled by the day phase of the turn.
thanks! good stuff!!! [:)]
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:43 am
by Tankerace
Not a problem. COurse now I wish that zig zaggin was an option! [:D]
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:03 pm
by freeboy
It really wasn't a ? of those in the community saying there cannot be, rather that the rutines where seen by myself and others as seriously flawed... if the units can move several hexes per turn they can unrealistically jump past choke points and the like...
but in regard to you outstanding example of mio killing by guessing the correct hex, as lond as you can break up your assets you can cover alot of hexes....
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:06 pm
by RAM
ORIGINAL: freeboy
It really wasn't a ? of those in the community saying there cannot be, rather that the rutines where seen by myself and others as seriously flawed... if the units can move several hexes per turn they can unrealistically jump past choke points and the like...
If that is the case, it should have an easy solution: make the TF check each hex it travels to see if it's found (or it finds) enemy ships, and then evaluate the possibility of a surface combat [:)]
I think that is what is done with the submarines...if a TF path goes over them there's a chance that there's a sub attack. I thought surface TFs ran similar routines...isn't that the case?
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:14 pm
by freeboy
Ram,
We went round and round, and your suggestion was one of about 275 that came out, not even close to a consenses that there was even a problem. The rutine in non specific cases works as designed, but the seek and and kill the enemy thrill of surface forces has been axed, you can fight over basesm, and maybe fight at sea...
see my AAR with Kalean, he took some bb damage and fled from but air rules the day.
Another suggestion in addition to yours I like is the chance of spotting and reacting one hex, having surface groups move one hex to intercept spotted tfs subject to modifiers such as weather
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:13 pm
by siRkid
I think that is what is done with the submarines...if a TF path goes over them there's a chance that there's a sub attack. I thought surface TFs ran similar routines...isn't that the case?
No this is not the case but I think making it so will solve the problem of not being able to block choke points.
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:21 pm
by esteban
I have been able to do mid-ocean intercepts, using the same methods described above. The problem of course is having a good idea where the enemy is going to be in 1-2 pulses.
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:26 pm
by esteban
ORIGINAL: RAM
If that is the case, it should have an easy solution: make the TF check each hex it travels to see if it's found (or it finds) enemy ships, and then evaluate the possibility of a surface combat [:)]
I think that is what is done with the submarines...if a TF path goes over them there's a chance that there's a sub attack. I thought surface TFs ran similar routines...isn't that the case?
The problem with this is that if you are in a situation where a surface TF is chasing a group of carriers, all the cruisers have to do is get one hex in front of the carriers to get a battle check on them. So if the cruisers are 5 hexes behind the carriers, and the carriers are retiring, the cruisers go at full speed to get one hex in front of the carriers during that pulse, and even if the carriers are at full speed themselves, you can force a surface action. Even though in reality, the carriers are still a couple hundred miles ahead of the cruisers.
Plus I would think that this would be hard to code, with all the overlapping movement paths that might be involved.
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:35 pm
by tsimmonds
The problem with this is that if you are in a situation where a surface TF is chasing a group of carriers, all the cruisers have to do is get one hex in front of the carriers to get a battle check on them. So if the cruisers are 5 hexes behind the carriers, and the carriers are retiring, the cruisers go at full speed to get one hex in front of the carriers during that pulse, and even if the carriers are at full speed themselves, you can force a surface action. Even though in reality, the carriers are still a couple hundred miles ahead of the cruisers.
A TF should only be able to intercept in this (hypothetical) way, if it is itself patroling a single hex the entire phase, similar to a sub patrol.
RE: How to achieve a Mid Ocean intercept.
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:06 pm
by Tankerace
IRL, to achieve a battle you did it the way I have shown. Take the Bismarck chase.
Great Britain has 6 or 7 cruiser scattered from Greenland to Scapa flow, searching for Bismarck.
In the Denmark Strait, the cruiser Norfolk and Suffolk spot Bismarck. They relay her course and speed to Admiralty Headquarters, who passes it on to Admiral Holland in HMS Hood.
Hollands nav offiver plots two courses, one which will allow Hood to intercept Bismarck at night, the other at day break. Holland chooses the daybreak option.
Both fleets meet at the same particular location (in game terms, hex) at the same time.
The Battle ensues, and we all know what happened historically.
A cruising fleet will search half heartedly for ships, but unless they EXPECT ships, they won't really check. In the interest of choke points however, it would be one consoation to make.