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The facts: Two Pz IIIe firing at a 7TP about 350m. Nine effective shots, each actually perforating the hull! No damage done and the 7TP fires back! One Pz IIIE is hit and explodes instantly... .

The conclusion: Alright, next time I'll play the Poles...

Originally posted by Gloo:
The facts: Two Pz IIIe firing at a 7TP about 350m. Nine effective shots, each actually perforating the hull! No damage done and the 7TP fires back! One Pz IIIE is hit and explodes instantly...

In v4.x there where some OOB related problems with warhead size / survivability .. don't know about v5.01 (still haven't downloaded).
Use the OOB editor to check the values in the OOB .. most likly the 7TP has surv. 3 and the the poor Pz3 only 2 .. makes big difference, unless you're shooting with much bigger warhead size than survivability.

This is at least my obervation from v4.x

A.

The German equipment wasn't better than everybody elses - in many cases their tanks were worse - it was their tactic of massing tanks together that gave them a local superiority in numbers. Plus there weren't any good hand held anti-tank guns like the bazooka and panzerfaus until later in the war.

Figmo

Figmo, You are wrong.
During 1939 the Polish AT Rifle was as good as a Bazooka, but as with all good weapons, not supplied in great numbers.
It was'nt so much for the concentration of tanks (which did'nt work in Warswa anyhow) but all together, shortly called Blitzkrieg!
One word to the Polish Tanks, only the Tp 7 was a good design, appart from the French Hotchkis who all fled. Still the same, low in numbers and no training.

I agree with Figmo. German PzKpfw III's in september 39 were quite equal to Polish 7TP's. Check the table on Achtung Panzer web page in "Bron Pancerna" section. 7TP has slight advantage over PzIII. By the way, don't you (Gloo)know that even before the war, Guderian stated that PzKpfw III is inadequately armed with its 37 mm cannon? Heinz wanted to equip PzKpfw with 50 mm L42 gun before war starts. It was not done and PanzerWaffen faced first problems in France when Matilda's II and B1 Bis appeared to be nearly immune to 37 and 75 mm guns being used by German tanks. Not till then Hitler ordered to equip tanks with 50 mm L60 guns. It was not done too, because of technical difficulties. Than Barbarossa started and German tank weaponry was virtually useless against T-34, KV-1 and KV-2.

Originally posted by Paulus:
...don't you (Gloo)know that even before the war, Guderian stated that PzKpfw III is inadequately armed with its 37 mm cannon...

Alright alright gentlemen, stop shooting! :p
I'm perfectly aware of the facts you're presenting! I know the 7TP had a better survivability. I know it all (well almost )
Anyway, all these good arguments don't make sense at all when the shells are buzzing all around through the combat compartment of this highly survivable polish tank!I'm totally prepared to agree that a shot or two (with a little prayer) could make their ways between any vital part of the machine and slalom around the crew members, but NINE, mates! What a holy lucky polish day... !
Besides, I think the average number of ineffective penetrating shots must be around 4 or 5. I really think it's a bit high, isn't it? On the other hand, I destroyed two of these nasties with only two shots of my Pz IIC! But you're right gentlemen, the editor is always here for us to play with; it's only annoying when you PBEM with customized OOBs... .

Originally posted by George aka 2f:
Figmo, You are wrong.
During 1939 the Polish AT Rifle was as good as a Bazooka, but as with all good weapons, not supplied in great numbers.
....

Could be - won't be the first time!!

I have no idea if Polish AT Rifles were better than others - I looked and can't find any data - do you have some?

As you say they were not distributed much at the beginning of the war - if you don't have them they're difficult to use. I think the Finish used AT Rifles and AT Guns better than most - nobody Blitzkrieged them. If they were better or worse than the Polish I don't know - again - no data. Although, as with anything, how they are used and how many you have is as important as how good they are.

That's why I think the Blitzkreig wouldn't work in the later years of the War - because almost all infantry formations carried Anti-Tank ability of some kind - I don't really think the Bazooka was that good - but if you have enough and it raises morale they can do a lot of damage.

Figmo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Figmo:
[QB]

Could be - won't be the first time!!

I have no idea if Polish AT Rifles were better than others - I looked and can't find any data - do you have some?

Polish AT rifle was WZÓR 35 (MARK 35) AT rifle UR. It was good, very good. It was able to pierce armor of all german tanks at the time (from about 100 metres). Second, the recoil was very small (I think it's quite important, I know that german AT rifles or british Boys were "kicking" like horses)
To GLOO: nine hits? So what? You just don't know anything about Poles

7tp has 3 surviveability and PzIIIe has 2 so the Polish tank is slightly more resiliant.

Sometimes it takes several hits to get a kill that is just luck

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
7tp has 3 surviveability and PzIIIe has 2 so the Polish tank is slightly more resiliant. Sometimes it takes several hits to get a kill that is just luck

Yes, I understand but when the average number of hits needed to kill a 7TP is around 5, I don't call it "slightly more resiliant"! When you have 3 or 4 shots by unit, it's almost hopeless to beat the odds. The only way is to maneuver but how can you do maneuver when the opposing force has also bought thousands of inf squads with accurate AT guns? There's a real problem here. I play the long campaign for a few days and constantly face overwhelming infantery, MG and At guns! It's almost impossible to infiltrate the ennemy rear lines because you permanently face high concentrations of useless ATG or MGs! When the AI was buying lots of tanks, it was'nt historical or realistic at all but you still could have fun shooting passing targets Now you can't and must play a war of trenches or bombard restlessly! My last battle was fought on a map blocked north to south with a three rows landmine (not kidding)! No tanks at all but thousands of inf squads massed along the frontline and hundreds of ATG sticking to the east border of the map! Useless to say that I gave up... no fun, no hope.

Originally posted by Paulus:
...To GLOO: nine hits? So what? You just don't know anything about Poles

Humm, I now know they are "slightly more resilient" as Paul said

[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: Gloo ]

Just a comment.

The German equipment are never better than anyone or country. There are born natural to be in the field.

They win not because of better equipment. But tatics, air power and most important of all their training.

Look at the Finland-Russian War in 1939. The Russian are better equpied but the Finnish troop are better train and in better terrain. The Russian win through their size, not their better equipment.

When the German attack the French, the latter had superb tanks like Char B & D but they are not using it correctly. The French troop lack training and some Gerenals in French are still preparing for trench war. Their tank in their mind then was infantry support.

When the German use the Tiger in the latter year of war , 1943 -. They did the same mistake using it in the wrong ground. Only under afew good commander did the Tiger became a terror.

So training and understanding of one equipment is important.

Hey, try frontal assault with ur Panzer III on a Char B. You are dead meat. I always goes for side shot and rear. If the visibility and terrain allow - Where is my 88 :p

And one final thing to say.....have u heard of lucky shot or fresh man luck.

Originally posted by Casper:
...Hey, try frontal assault with ur Panzer III on a Char B. You are dead meat. I always goes for side shot and rear...

What do you think I'm playing with, a Monopoly? I play SP since 95 and I perfectly know that a shot taken from rear is more likely to penetrate than a frontal hit! What the hell is the difference between 9 penetrating shots taken from a side or another? I don't argue about taking shots from left or right but about lethality and nine penetrating shots not causing any damage! You can always maneuver when it makes no difference which side you shoot from! A penetrating hit is a penetrating hit, no matter wich side it penetrated! I've never been fighting in an armored vehicle but I can't believe that many shells crossing the combat compartement still allow the crew to load, aim and shoot back without batting an eylid... .

I did a test with 50 PZIIIe firing at 50 7tp from the front and got ~60% 1st round kills, ~20% 2 round kills 8% 3 round kills, 14% took 4 or more with 7 being the most (two of those being "ineffective suspension hits") which technically are not penetrating hits

Please do not generalize one "lucky event" to EVERY event.

Originally posted by Gloo:

... The only way is to maneuver but how can you do maneuver when the opposing force has also bought thousands of inf squads with accurate AT guns? There's a real problem here. I play the long campaign for a few days and constantly face overwhelming infantery, MG and At guns! It's almost impossible to infiltrate the ennemy rear lines because you permanently face high concentrations of useless ATG or MGs!... Useless to say that I gave up... no fun, no hope.

Artillery is the answer. Fire a rolling barrage of 75mm or better and follow through with your armor. The Poles will be surpressed enough so that they can not effectively harm you. If you use 75mm, you can usually safely drive in the barrage as 75mm will not often hurt tanks. However if you use 105mm or larger and try it, you probably will damage or kill some of your own armor. After the tanks drive through and machine gun any infantry that open fire, follow up with panzer grenaders and have them chew up the Polish infantry. Those halftrack AAMGs are deadly.

Hope springs eternal.

Another thing that could be happening here is "Ringers". That's what I call the every once and a while unit the AI gets that has high experience and morale. I've had Tigers shooting at T-34s that just wouldn't die. When I finally got frustrated enough - I took a look and there they are "Ringers". When I've taken 5 or 6 shoots at something with a tank that should kill it and it doesn't die - then I just put smoke in front of it and get the rest. I deal with him later when his buddies are greatly reduced.

Be careful though, I immobilized one and put smoke in front of him - then forgot he was there - that hurt when the smoke cleared and I didn't have anymore smoke - ARGH!!

Figmo

Figmo, if u got those, what you call Ringers,
and after the 2nd hit doe'snt explode, move ur tank a little bit, so u get a worse hit chance and often they die, is a thing from SP1, don't know why, but it often works.
Give it a try.

Originally posted by George aka 2f:
Figmo, if u got those, what you call Ringers,
and after the 2nd hit doe'snt explode, move ur tank a little bit, so u get a worse hit chance and often they die, is a thing from SP1, don't know why, but it often works.
Give it a try.

Hmmm - sounds interesting - I'll definately give it a try.

Thanks,
Figmo

Good tip, I find that with fortifications alot, might have something to do with the formula used to calculate angle of penetration, and armour thickness.

I think the Finish used AT Rifles and AT Guns better than most - nobody Blitzkrieged them.

The terrain here isn't the best for Blitzkrieg, a lot of woods to block your view, you never know in which bush there's a FIN RifleSquad with Molotovs ready to turn your T-34s into torches