Matrix Games Forums

Phooey, if people can rant aganst something, I can rant for it just as much.

If I get labelled for it, hey not like I am going to panic eh. I am already wearing several labels as it is.

Just read a thread at Wargamer lamenting the prices of the Digital Downloads, and how it is unfair or unacceptable they come without a box and pointless manual not to mention the file is not represented on a cd.

You people are whiners.

The price of the game is the price of the game.
I am not paying for a box when I buy a game!!!
It's a friggin box for crying out load.
Want a box? print out a pretty picture and tape it to any darn box your heart desires.
Manual? heck I can't really say the manuals I have gotten in games in the past (that came with them) amounted to much of anything infinitely valuable.
And a cd? for crying out loud what backwater part of the 21st century are you living in? Burn it to a blessed cd if you absolutely must see the program in a physical fashion.

Box manual and cd. They are not vital, the game itself is vital.

Oh but it costs 15 dollars more than this game here, and they have a box manual and a cd.
Arrrrgggghhh you are also likely pointing at a game I think is garbage too in all likelihood.
Because it's probably is an RTS or FPS arcade toy.
They ain't worth 60 or 70 bucks in the first place.

And one of my favourites, "but they already made the game the series originated with".
Where exactly does that matter one single bit?
It still took time energy effort and resources to make the new game.

I might maon about being inherently poor, but hell why not, being poor sucks.
But if the game is 60 bucks, then the game is 60 bucks.

Get over it please, you make newbie wargamers look like whiners.
Any old grognard will have bought plenty of wargames in their time where 60 bucks was just the beginning.

Digital download all the way, and no patches if you ain't got a serial number.
And I will tell you what I get told when it comes to upgrading.
If you have dial up and it sucks, consider upgrading to broad band eh.
And yes, I know, it might not be easy.
Now you know what I think of people telling me upgrades are just part of the process.

Strikes me as a matter of preference. I will not pay $60+ for a game that has no manual, box, etc. Just don't see the money going toward anything but price rape. You prefer the download, no frills. The policy may suck, but arguing won't change a company's mind, only money (or lack thereof) will. I never did see the whole argument about it. Especially not enough to start another thread on it...


Goblin

Well wit h BIN you are getting probably in the next year maybe 15 games... in addition to the scenarios already with the game .. so 60 is a bargain.. imo

My question though Goblin is this, if you won't pay 60 bucks sans box manual cd, would you assume the game was only worth 40 bucks?

This of course assumes you think the box manual cd were ever part of the 60 bucks in the first place.

If it was the same game, every bit as good as this digital download, came with a box manual and cd, was sold retail, and never was there any mention of a digital download, but priced at 75 bucks to cover the added expense of a box manual and cd, would you have ever contemplated what is clearly going to be a well thought of game in light of what has already been said of Korsun Pocket.

After all, some have said Korsun Pocket is one of the best wargames ever made. A plenty solid vote of confidence if you ask me.

I have myself, never seen the 60 bucks as anything other than what it is, the stated price for the game.

No game is worth $75. Box or not. Thats where I just wait to be called a thief again when it goes into the bargain bin or on sale at a yard sale.

The main thing game companies claim is that the prices for the games are so high because of the CD, box, advertising, and manual. You see it in all the gaming mags. "The game will be $55 because of..." type thing.

Now you have a game that may be $60, without any of that stuff. Why the price? Because thats what they want for it, which is cool. Doesn't mean I'm going to buy it when I enjoy the games that have the 'extras' and cost less at the same time.

Like I said, its a matter of preference, and know one is going to change someone elses preference about things. I won't change your any more than you will change mine. Doesn't mean anyone should be put down about how they feel though, which is the main reason I even posted in a subject I usually avoid.


Goblin

Ok I can relate to that Goblin

Me, I have paid up to 35 bucks Canadian for an ASL Annual (back when they were a new and current item). Just a dumb magazine really. But it made a substantial impact on my ability to play the game.

ASL rule book back when it was a new item and the original edition, cost me 70 bucks. It was just 4 chapters of substantially challenging text. No game just a manual.

Some might think 70 bucks and it is ONLY a manual would have to be insane.
But here I sit, I have spent well past a 1000 bucks on ASL, and I doubt I am finished.
I guess some could say, couldn't they have just released a single game box, with a manuaal and all the boards counters you needed in one package?
Actually they did hehe, it was called Squad Leader

Not all games are worth the same amount though.

If I "thought" BiN was only worth 40 bucks, then I guess I would refuse to pay 60 for it in the end, regardless of how it was sold.

So that means I suppose, we are not discussing the pricing policy by the sounds of things, but qualitative assessment of the assumed "real" worth of the game to both of us.

I have seen several games myself for instance, either on my machine because I had the game, or on another's machine because they had the game, and some of my responses have been, what garbage, the game is not even worth anything at all.

For instance, I saw HoI at 70 bucks Canadian on the shelf here.
I would not even expend the hard drive space for a free copy.

I have Uncommon Valour, which is why I have no qualms about WitP going for 92 Canadian.
A lot of money 92 Canadian. But it's a lot of game.

Chances are I will be picking up a couple of cheaper titles beforehand, but that doesn't impact my assessment of the worth of WitP.

You are correct. It is the relative worth to each individual that makes a persons decision for them. I've got over $1k worth of role-playing books accumulated over the years now, and it was worth it to me. My brother wouldn't pay five bucks for a book, but has a nice collection of junked cars that he fixes up. I wouldn't pay five bucks for one of them either, lol.


Goblin

So let's see...the idea of some people voicing a concern (at other forums) over the very real corporate-world tendency to price gouge a bit here and there (which to deny it doesn't happen with gasoline, food and games would be a VERY naive stance to take in the modern world of greed ) has offended you so much that you felt the need to post a thread critical of their position? [8|]

Perhaps you shoud spend more time playing and enjoying the games you purchase at (inflated) full price and spend less time ranting on those people who don't feel the same as you.

I have to take exception to the position that an "anti-rant" makes it OK to post a "pro-rant". Particularly when the anti-rant is on one system, and the pro-rant is on another. IMHO, neither is very good for the hobby. A rant, by definition, is a rather selfish act. It serves very little purpose, other than letting the person who posted it vent their feelings.

OTOH, a good discussion about the various pros and cons, in this case regarding price and packaging, does the community, and the manufacturers, a great service. It's customer feedback, something any good company wants.

On the subject of preferences, I'd have to say I favor the "box, manual, and CD" package. Digital downloads are fine, for some folks, but not for everyone. Some of us DO read the manual, and it's much easier to do so when it's sitting in black & white on your desk, than if it's in a PDF somewhere on the HD. Yes, you can print out the PDF version if you want, and have a ream of paper and an ink cartridge (or two) you care to expend. Personally, with the price of ink cartridges these days, I feel that cost should be considered when the consumer "prices" a game to buy. ("Let's see, both games are $60, but this one I have to print my own manual, which will take an hour or more, use a cartridge worth $35, and a package of paper. That makes the actual cost to me closer to $100 than $60. I'll buy the other.") Having the CD is also important, in case you ever need to reinstall the game. It's not a perfect world out there, computers die, and so do HD's. Lastly, broadband isn't an option for everyone, no matter how much you might want it. It may not just be difficult to get but, as in my case, simply not available to you at any price, so you're stuck with dial-up.

There's always another side to the coin.

Now Orzel, that's a bit harsh. Some of the criticisms of the price policy have been 'forthright' to say the least and our friend 'Hexed' (who I think you're directing your post at[:)]) is only really responding in kind. Now the game is available to us UK gamers at 33.99GBP which is 11GBP cheaper than the recommended retail for 'Doom 3'. A suitable box (DVD style I believe) is going to be available with the CD although the price for this hasn't been fixed as yet. Once I know then I will make a decision as to whether it's worth purchasing if I feel the need to. The question of whether Matrix has priced it correctly will be answered by the number of sales over the medium term. Those who feel the price is too high won't buy and if there's enough of them SSG and Matrix will be in serious financial trouble.

I think people have the right to question prices...plain and simple...just as much as companies have to try to validate those prices.

When computer games were coming with boxes and manuals and some even with extra "goodies" just about every game company I know made reference to the costs involved with all of those items. Eventually, in the name of keeping prices in check while at the same time getting some extra margin in the face of fierce competition, one by one the "extras" disappeared. I can understand that...it's a business after all.

However when the concept of downloading games came along it was hailed as the future of how business would be done...a way for companies to save money buy cutting back expenses and overhead...some of which that they claimed they could then pass on to the consumers. We all heard it...I did. Well guess what?...no box, no manual and no cd even and what has happened to prices?

So what is wrong with people asking why? They were told/heard one thing and haven't seen it come to pass...what's wrong with people asking for an honest answer? They are entitled to it in my opinion because they are going off what the industry feed them via various media outlets.

Personally I don't care enough either way really. But because I may or may not be willing to pay 60-70 bucks for a computer game doesn't give me the right to say the other people are wrong for voicing up their position. If HG doesn't like to see people asking questions then he shouldn't read the threads...instead of taking up a torch to denounce them.

You need more fibre in your diet Orzel

I never said people couldn't disagree, I merely said phooey on people thinking the game was over priced.

I think any "good" computer wargame under 100 bucks is just a computer wargame under 100 bucks.

To me seriously priced wargames BEGIN at 100 bucks.

If the hobby dies down due to fewer people buying based on a refusal to pay more than 40 bucks come hell or high water, it will just mean the computer wargame industry might have a die off of superfluous companies, and that might be that.

Board game wargames were getting a bit to flashy in the 80s if you ask me, and some of the chrome was really just chrome.

Maybe our computer wargames need to try and slow down the chrome obsession.
Let the designers get in some designing, without the need to constantly absorb demands for yet more discovered bells and whistles.

The fact that you think games begin at 100 is fine...crazy to me and probably others...but fine. I, personally, would never pay that much for a game, regardless of graphic and goodies...unless it could also do laundry and wash my car for me. But that is your choice and that is my choice.

Speaking of choices...let us not forget that the various game companies are in the industry by their own choice too. And it's the choices that they have made in regard to the types of games they have chosen to develop that have feed the fires that have kept prices up.

By pandering to the game counsel generation that can't accept a game that doesn't have 3D renderings and game characters that are real enough to have bad breath...and consist of just shooting everything in sight, many have fallen into the tigerpit and will indeed probably fade away.

Anyway...I just don't understand why you seem to think your concept of how much a game is worth should be accepted by all as some sort of rational standard. Live and let live...agree to disagree. Why even start a flame thread that rallys against flame threads? [&:]

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
To me seriously priced wargames BEGIN at 100 bucks.

I agree 110%: any wargame costing over a c-note is seriously priced.

Anyway...I just don't understand why you seem to think your concept of how much a game is worth should be accepted by all as some sort of rational standard.

Just basically stating Orzel, I think claiming a game HAS to be made UNDER 40 bucks is equally unreasonable.

EVERY single GOOD game I own is well over 100 bucks.
Well every board game that is.

I have yet to ever spend over 100 bucks on any computer wargame ever.

Which explains why I call ALL computer wargames INEXPENSIVE

Which is why I can but only chuckle at people crying over how paying 60 bucks for an admittedly good game is such a horrible affront to reasonable marketing

I think, more or less, computer wargamers are spoiled.
Well actually, I think anyone that plays games not based on board games are inherently spoiled.
I think the hobby is full of people that are inherently being overly spoiled.
I know I feel spoiled

It's hard to find sympathy for someone complaining about buying a very complete computer program like Bin, when I am going to have to pay well over 100 bucks for the Armies of Oblivion module for ASL, and most of the fans don't really seem to care, they just want it.
And AoO is just a module, not a complete game. And it's not even a fundemental module.

Computer wargamers have it soft if you ask me.
Time for all you computer wargamers to stop crying and act like serious wargamers.

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
I think, more or less, computer wargamers are spoiled.
Well actually, I think anyone that plays games not based on board games are inherently spoiled.
I think the hobby is full of people that are inherently being overly spoiled.
I know I feel spoiled

It's hard to find sympathy for someone complaining about buying a very complete computer program like Bin, when I am going to have to pay well over 100 bucks for the Armies of Oblivion module for ASL, and most of the fans don't really seem to care, they just want it.
And AoO is just a module, not a complete game. And it's not even a fundemental module.

Computer wargamers have it soft if you ask me.
Time for all you computer wargamers to stop crying and act like serious wargamers.

Wait a minute, I've seen this same 'opinion' posted here several times over the past few years...are you Les-the-Sarge??

Well hell isn't it obvious Tracer

Who forgot to send Tracer the memo hehe

I will say that War in the Pacific looks interesting. But I've got games that cover that scenario and have decided that particular price is too high for me. But I won't complain about the price. When 'World in Flames' comes out I will probably buy it regardless of the price though I may wait awhile if I find it insultingly high(over 100$). I think that when you rationalize an injustice, you become complicit and can expect more injustice. I refuse to do that. I'll call it as I see it. If I think the price is too high , I simply won't buy the product. Let me get this straight. You'll cough up the dough for whatever game because it lifts you to a higher level than "newbie gamers". I guess that's why you're a matrix hero.

I see a point in Hexed gamer's opinion
But also I see a point from another posters here as well

For me, I am a gamer but not dediciated war gamer
I have diverse portfolio of games covering many different topics (even SIMS..(for my wife)[:D])
In that case, if I am not that devoted to a particular genre, entry level price might be a hurdle (suppose I am playing WitP not very long but about a month or two and moves to the other games (Say Doom 3 only lasted for me about a month (yeah I know some people finished it in about a day or two..and it took me a MONTH GOSH..)
then maybe I think the price of 60 or 70 seems high (not to say that the game is not worth it but the price is high for my gaming habit). Also I am a game collector, thus box, cover arts count for me. And it would have been great if 60 or 70 comes with at least a bot even not manual.

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Now the game is available to us UK gamers at 33.99GBP which is 11GBP cheaper than the recommended retail for 'Doom 3'.

Firstly, that 33.99 is NET of VAT.. they STILL havn't fixed that, despite multiple complaints the last time. You pay £39.94.

Secondly, whatever the "RRP" for Doom 3 is, the price across the usual range of online retailers AND stores was £25 to £35.

Granted I have no problem in paying more for BiN than Doom 3 (a tenner in my case), but it's not quite the value buy you suggest.