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No US AP bombs
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:41 pm
by madmickey
Was the lack of US AP bombs historically accurate?
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:07 am
by Tankerace
If I remember correctly, GP bombs were the norm. AP were reserved for U-boat pens, which were in France, not the Pacific.
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:02 am
by madmickey
ORIGINAL: Tankerace
If I remember correctly, GP bombs were the norm. AP were reserved for U-boat pens, which were in France, not the Pacific.
No use of AP on BB/CA by USN helldivers?
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:06 am
by Tankerace
DOn't believe so. Deck armor is traditionally thin, and a 1000lb GP bomb dropped at under 10,000 feet will penetrate the armor of all BBs with ease except the Yamato. You can't stock AP bombs, because vary rarely will you engage a BB, and if you drop an AP bomb on a tin can, it just goes in one end and out the other. So, its safer to hedge your bets and use GP bombs. 500lb GP wont do anything against a BB though, except wreck AA and secondary mounts.
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:39 am
by Twotribes
If the GP bomb can pentrate deck armor on all BB except Yamota, then how come in game it DOESNT?
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:44 am
by Tankerace
? I have gotten several deck penetrations with 1000lb GP bombs, on almost all Japanese BBs. Oh wait, that was in UV.
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:32 am
by rkr
It seems you can only hurt japanese BBs with torpedoes. I haven't seen any deck armor penetrations either, even Kongos will shrug off 1000 pounders. If this is historically inaccurate I hope it will be fixed. It certainly is different from UV, reminds me of the untouchable BBs of early pacwar versions.
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:59 am
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: madmickey
Was the lack of US AP bombs historically accurate?
Yes. Up to mid-42 only CV Enterprise had any and only enough for 1 strike of about 16 planes. Pre-war US "AP" naval bombs were in actuality converted 14inch AP shells similar in conception to the Japanese Type 80. The type aboard Enterprise was rated at approximate 5.8 inches class B armor if dropped from 10000 feet or from 6000 feet in a 300 knot dive. Starting late 1942, US began producing purpose built 1000lb AP bomb, the Mk-33 but it was never in wide use.....a late war Essex class carrier might have between 10-20 such bombs if any at all. Same for the 2000lb GP bomb (to be used only by TBF) The heavy Anti-ship component remained the torpedo-armed bomber.
GP bombs are not designed as deck penetrators. They are designed for attacking soft targets, including lightly or unarmored warships. Battleships in the game will be resistant to them in but they are not immune as GP type bombs in particular can create large FIRE levels. FIRE levels translate into permanent SYS damage and if SYS is high enough, can even cause or increase progressive flooding. Then as mentioned, there is the weapon mount damage effect as well....all of which takes substantial repair yard time to erase.
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:18 am
by Tankerace
SO, to kill a battleship, one needs:
Another battleship!
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:10 pm
by String
´Well, you still can plaster the battleship with bombs.. and sink it
In my current campaign against the AI i'm holding on to singapore (see the thread named by it) and have over 150 heavy bombers stationed there.. all of them carry 500lb gp bombs and have sunk 4 battleships alltogether
even if the bombs don't sink a BB they will destroy any AA mounts it has if applied enough.. which means that it's very vunerable to TB's..
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:22 pm
by Feinder
DOn't believe so. Deck armor is traditionally thin, and a 1000lb GP bomb dropped at under 10,000 feet will penetrate the armor of all BBs with ease except the Yamato.
As the other poster said, IJN deck armor (145+) is more than the penetration of the 1000 lb GP (whatever that is, I can't seem to find it). For all IJN BBs except for the Hei class, the armor is >145, so the 1000 lb GPs will never penetrate.
Start fires - possibly. Kill lots of secondary mounts - definately. Penetrate the armor - never.
I actually think the (deck) armor ratings of the IJN BBs are a little overstated. From my copy of Janes and numerous other resourses that I can link to if necessary, the deck armor was
Fuso = 2" (3.8" after '43)
Ise = 2.25" (~4" after '43)
Nagato = 7"
For comparison, most of the USN BBs classes of 1941 (Nevada,Pennsylvanina, California, and Maryland) also had between 2" and 3" of armor. Yet their deck armor ratings are from 110 - 140.
I actually think the IJN BBs have been given the benefit of the armor from their refits in '43, except that they start with it.
Don't really care tho. Not whining. The IJN has enough cards stacked against it, that if it's a little harder to sink their BBs, it just keeps them viable longer.
-F-
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:25 pm
by tsimmonds
What examples do we have from real life of battleship deck armor being penetrated by GP bombs? None come to my mind.....
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:38 pm
by Feinder
Well, just to play Devil's Advocate Irrel, "How many (IJN) BBs do we have access to the wrecks...?"
Most of them were sunk by a combination of Bombs and Torpedoes. And I don't think the wrecks of any of them are in shallow enough water to "diagnose" the wreck, to see whether the GP bombs were, or were not penetrating anything.
-F-
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:44 pm
by Feinder
Ok. And here we go. Ise is sunk by 1000 lb bombs, no torpedo attacks or hits are mentioned.
Granted this is single source (CombinedFleet.Com), but his info has proved quite reliable in the past...
She starts off, just after refit at Kure (so she's in good shape...)
25 February-September 1945:
At Kure. No fuel, aircraft or flight crews are available. During this period, the ISE is camouflaged olive green with dark green, yellow, gray and red-brown splotches.
1 March 1945:
CarDiv 4 is disbanded.The ISE is reassigned to Kure as Reserve Ship, 1st rank.
19 March 1945:
Vice Admiral (later Admiral) Marc A. Mitscher's Task Force 58 carriers USS ESSEX (CV-9), INTREPID (CV-11), HORNET (CV-12), WASP (CV-18), HANCOCK (CV-19), BENNINGTON (CV-20) and the BELLEAU WOOD (CVL-24) make the first carrier attack on the Kure Naval Arsenal. More than 240 aircraft (SB2C "Helldivers", F4U "Corsairs" and F6F "Hellcats") attack the battleships HYUGA, ISE, YAMATO, HARUNA, the carriers AMAGI, KATSURAGI, RYUHO, KAIYO and other ships. The ISE is hit by two bombs, one of which hits near the aircraft elevator abaft the mainmast.
The fleet is defended vigorously but unsuccessfully by 54 Kawanishi N1K2-J Shiden-Kai ("George") fighters of Captain (later General and CINC, JSDF**) Genda Minoru's (of AKAGI at Pearl Harbor) 343rd NAG based at Matsuyama airfield. The 343rd's pilots led by Lt. Oshibuchi Takashi claim 52 aircraft shot down against 14 fighters lost and one Nakajima C6N1 Saiun ("Myrt") that collided with a "Hellcat". Japanese flak claims five more planes.
20 April 1945:
At Kure. The ISE is registered as a Reserve Ship, 4th (lowest) rank.
May 1945:
The ISE is transferred to Ondo Seto between Kurahashijima and Kure as a floating AA battery.
1 June 1945:
Ondo Seto. The ISE, HYUGA, NAGATO and the HARUNA are assigned to the Special (Coast) Guard Fleet.
24 July 1945:
Ondo Seto. At 0615 about 30 aircraft from Vice Admiral (later Admiral) McCain's Task Force 38 attack the ISE. She is hit by a 1,000-lb bomb dropped by an F6F "Hellcat" fighter-bomber from the USS BELLEAU WOOD's (CVL-24) Air Group 31. Bombs hit the starboard bow flight deck, main deck and No. 3 turret. About noon, 30 more carrier-based aircraft attack and score a direct hit on the bridge. Captain Mutaguchi and other bridge personnel are killed. Mutaguchi is promoted to Rear Admiral posthumously.
During the day's attacks, the ISE suffers five direct hits and numerous near-misses. About 50 crewmen are killed and many others wounded. The ISE settles by the bow and takes on water. Work begins to pump out her spaces.
27 July 1945:
After three days of pumping the ISE is restored to an even keel. It is planned to tow the ISE to drydock.
*** Something must have penetrated somewhere, because she's obviously sprung a fairly impressive leak. *** -F-
28 July 1945:
Ondo Seto. The ISE is attacked by aircraft from Task Force 38's USS TICONDEROGA (CV-14), LEXINGTON (CV-16) and the HANCOCK (CV-17). The ISE is hit by five 1,000-lb bombs dropped by F4U "Corsairs" from the HANCOCK's Air Group 6. During the day, the ISE suffers 18 direct hits and many more near misses from other carrier-based aircraft. At 1400, 18 USAAF B-24 "Liberators" from Okinawa also bomb the ISE, but they score no hits.
The ISE founders with a 15 degree list to starboard and sinks by the bow in shallow water at 34-15N, 132-31E. At 1800, all attempts to salvage the ISE are abandoned. Some of her AA guns are removed and added to nearby AA batteries.
Glug, glug, glug...
-F-
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:45 pm
by tsimmonds
I didn't mean just IJN BBs, I meant all BBs. And not all BBs that were hit by bombs were sunk. There were many instances of BBs being hit by bombs (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, Strasbourg, Nagato, Kongo come immediately to mind, I'm sure there are others); surely some of this damage is documented.
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:01 pm
by frank1970
ORIGINAL: Feinder
Ok. And here we go. Ise is sunk by 1000 lb bombs, no torpedo attacks or hits are mentioned.
Granted this is single source (CombinedFleet.Com), but his info has proved quite reliable in the past...
She starts off, just after refit at Kure (so she's in good shape...)
25 February-September 1945:
At Kure. No fuel, aircraft or flight crews are available. During this period, the ISE is camouflaged olive green with dark green, yellow, gray and red-brown splotches.
1 March 1945:
CarDiv 4 is disbanded.The ISE is reassigned to Kure as Reserve Ship, 1st rank.
19 March 1945:
Vice Admiral (later Admiral) Marc A. Mitscher's Task Force 58 carriers USS ESSEX (CV-9), INTREPID (CV-11), HORNET (CV-12), WASP (CV-18), HANCOCK (CV-19), BENNINGTON (CV-20) and the BELLEAU WOOD (CVL-24) make the first carrier attack on the Kure Naval Arsenal. More than 240 aircraft (SB2C "Helldivers", F4U "Corsairs" and F6F "Hellcats") attack the battleships HYUGA, ISE, YAMATO, HARUNA, the carriers AMAGI, KATSURAGI, RYUHO, KAIYO and other ships. The ISE is hit by two bombs, one of which hits near the aircraft elevator abaft the mainmast.
The fleet is defended vigorously but unsuccessfully by 54 Kawanishi N1K2-J Shiden-Kai ("George") fighters of Captain (later General and CINC, JSDF**) Genda Minoru's (of AKAGI at Pearl Harbor) 343rd NAG based at Matsuyama airfield. The 343rd's pilots led by Lt. Oshibuchi Takashi claim 52 aircraft shot down against 14 fighters lost and one Nakajima C6N1 Saiun ("Myrt") that collided with a "Hellcat". Japanese flak claims five more planes.
20 April 1945:
At Kure. The ISE is registered as a Reserve Ship, 4th (lowest) rank.
May 1945:
The ISE is transferred to Ondo Seto between Kurahashijima and Kure as a floating AA battery.
1 June 1945:
Ondo Seto. The ISE, HYUGA, NAGATO and the HARUNA are assigned to the Special (Coast) Guard Fleet.
24 July 1945:
Ondo Seto. At 0615 about 30 aircraft from Vice Admiral (later Admiral) McCain's Task Force 38 attack the ISE. She is hit by a 1,000-lb bomb dropped by an F6F "Hellcat" fighter-bomber from the USS BELLEAU WOOD's (CVL-24) Air Group 31. Bombs hit the starboard bow flight deck, main deck and No. 3 turret. About noon, 30 more carrier-based aircraft attack and score a direct hit on the bridge. Captain Mutaguchi and other bridge personnel are killed. Mutaguchi is promoted to Rear Admiral posthumously.
During the day's attacks, the ISE suffers five direct hits and numerous near-misses. About 50 crewmen are killed and many others wounded. The ISE settles by the bow and takes on water. Work begins to pump out her spaces.
27 July 1945:
After three days of pumping the ISE is restored to an even keel. It is planned to tow the ISE to drydock.
*** Something must have penetrated somewhere, because she's obviously sprung a fairly impressive leak. *** -F-
28 July 1945:
Ondo Seto. The ISE is attacked by aircraft from Task Force 38's USS TICONDEROGA (CV-14), LEXINGTON (CV-16) and the HANCOCK (CV-17). The ISE is hit by five 1,000-lb bombs dropped by F4U "Corsairs" from the HANCOCK's Air Group 6. During the day, the ISE suffers 18 direct hits and many more near misses from other carrier-based aircraft. At 1400, 18 USAAF B-24 "Liberators" from Okinawa also bomb the ISE, but they score no hits.
The ISE founders with a 15 degree list to starboard and sinks by the bow in shallow water at 34-15N, 132-31E. At 1800, all attempts to salvage the ISE are abandoned. Some of her AA guns are removed and added to nearby AA batteries.
Glug, glug, glug...
-F-
No, they flooded her to stop the fires caused by GP bombs! [;)]
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:08 pm
by tsimmonds
Don't forget the mining effect of near misses. This would have been accentuated by the shallow water.
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:14 pm
by Feinder
Yep, there has certainly be much discussion about the damage from near-misses (and they could certainly be devistating).
I think I saw on these boards somewhere, that WitP -does- model near-misses, and they are resolved as hit's on the Belt Armor? (is that correct?).
But if that's the case, it would actually be harder to do any damage, because the Belt Armor is always substantially more than the Deck Armor (so a near miss vs. Belt Armor would likely not penetrate in WitP anyways).
I'm I correct in this assertion?
-F-
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:21 pm
by Nikademus
Ise was sitting in a port, not moving and not in the best condition and had a reduced crew. Images of the Ostfriesland come to mind. It does highlight the effect of near misses though which can, depending on several variable factors result in anything from shaking the hull to a full blown mine effect.
Such blasts would open the hull and allow progressive flooding. They also dont require an armor deck penetration. A "Near Miss" hit location would be nice and was one of two additional HL's that i preposed a long time ago, but it was unable to be incorporated into the game due to legitimate factors. The closest you get is a "Belt hit" from a bomb but as mentioned, it does need to be able to penetrate the armor of the HL so in the case of a battleship it would pose no threat.
RE: No US AP bombs
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:22 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: irrelevant
Don't forget the mining effect of near misses. This would have been accentuated by the shallow water.
Give that man a Twinkee.
[;)]