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Playing Allied against AI (Scen 15 1.21) I sank a Japanese Carrier named "Hiyo" I've never heard of. It shows up in the "Sunk Shops" table with 209 points. This vessel isn't in the ships data base. Can someone enlighten me what I'm missing?
Cheers
Rainer

Hi, Sister of the Junyo.
Sunk in 1944 in Marinana's
I tend to consider her and Junyo as CVL even though they are classed as CV. (They do not go head to head with USN CV unless there are also fleet IJN CV involved)

Japan, America, and Britain all had plans for converting large liners into supplemental carriers for the purpose-built fleet ships. Only Japan carried their plans to completion. Junyo and Hiyo were inferior by almost any standard, but they were better than nothing.
I believe Junyo is in a tie for surviving torpedo hits; a submarine scored three successful torpedo hits on her while she was at sea, but she made it back to port. It really bugs me that such a lousy ship should have a ruggedness record.

Thanks Mogami.
I wonder why this vessel was left out of the data base.
Maybe someone from 3by2/Maxis spots this ...
Cheers
Rainer

Hi, She must be in the data base. You sank her. She is the same class as Junyo so when you look at Junyo you are seeing her data.

I mean the info data base where you can look up ships, equipment etc (4th button on top or [V]). I didn't find her in THAT data base. In the 'other' data base my boys found and sunk her, you're right [:)]

Oops, it just occurred to me that the info data base may only show ship classes, not individual ships. If that's the case scrap the whole thread and accept my apologies [:(]

Yep, the info data base 'only' shows classes, I just double checked.

She is in that data base. She is a Junyo class CV. Same stats. Much the same as the Iowa stands in for the Missouri, New Jersey, and Wisconsin. They are identical ships in the same class. [8D]

Edit---Ah...looks like you caught the concept. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Sister of the Junyo.
Sunk in 1944 in Marinana's
I tend to consider her and Junyo as CVL even though they are classed as CV. (They do not go head to head with USN CV unless there are also fleet IJN CV involved)

I am rather puzzled about this. These slow ships with their small air complements were inferior to the Independence class carriers. Yet are they classed as CVs ? Certainly KB did not consider them to be ships of the line. If I remember correctly one of them was sent to the Aleutians for a diversionary operation during the Midway operation. I forget how they were classed in Uncommon Valor...

Hi, They are classed as CV because the Japanese classed them as CV. I think it best a player realizes they are just "super" CVL and not real CV. They are fine in the support role but should not attempt to engage a like number of USN CV in battle. (They make a fine 2nd Carrier TF in such situations where another IJN CV TF composed of real CV is on hand to also take part in the battle. )
Junyo and Hiyo together can carry 116 Aircraft (over loaded) These airgroups are not comparable to the groups on Kaga, Akagi, Soryu and Hiryu. They are slightly less rated then Zuikaku and Shokaku. But in a major battle they can make a contribution if their strikes arrive after the main CV strikes. And of course unopposed they can wreck havoc on shipping in a local area.

For a short period when the USN is short CV they can be very helpfull. When spotted by patrol aircraft they show as CV. Unless the aircraft recognizes them and reports them by name they can confuse the USN.

Obviously you won't need the Junyo and Hiyo to operate as fleet carriers as long as all 6 of your original fleet carriers are operational. But if you get anywhere near Japan's historic plight you will be happy to have these two ships.

Their main problem obviously is speed as they could not keep up with the older (or later) fleet carriers. They should still make good assets.

Marc aka Caran...

Of course, the cruising speed of a TF containing the Junyos is the same as a TF containing the fleet CVs. You only need full speed on special occasions; just don't put them in the same TF with the big CVs. But they do combine well with the CVLs, which are also slower than the main fleet units. In a separate TFs they can still co-operate well with their faster sisters. They can certainly put planes in they air, and they can dilute attacks and absorb ordnance. Or, they can operate in a secondary theatre (CBI, anyone?) where they will still outclass their likely opposition.

So how many "fleet" CVs did the IJN have? Is the Shinano considered one or was it just the 6 of the PH KB?

Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku

Taiho

Amagi, Unryu, Katsuragi, and the rest of the class had they been completed.

I'd say Shinano would be as marginal as Junyo and Hiyo. Same type of speed problems, and limited air group. The Japanese themselves seem to have thought of her as an auxiliary carrier, intended to support the front-line CVs rather than serve alongside them.

Their main problem obviously is speed as they could not keep up with the older (or later) fleet carriers.

For that matter, Kaga is slower than the other 5 KB CVs.

Shinano might be more realistically represented in WitP as a huge CVE:-). As I understand it she was indeed supposed to support the fleet as an aircraft tender (like the RN's Unicorn among others (and yes, Unicorn ended up used as a CV/CVL but that was due to massive shortages)).

Marc aka Caran...

In Shinano's case, a "support carrier" was a distinctly combat-oriented type meant to take the "point position" in battle. Closest to the enemy, she would suffer the greatest concentration of attack, and she would be in position to allow planes to shuttle from other carriers and thus effectively increase the strike range for those planes.

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

In Shinano's case, a "support carrier" was a distinctly combat-oriented type meant to take the "point position" in battle. Closest to the enemy, she would suffer the greatest concentration of attack, and she would be in position to allow planes to shuttle from other carriers and thus effectively increase the strike range for those planes.

I never thought about her that way, but the idea makes a great deal of sense. Had she been available in 1942, she might actually have been effective in this role....even at the Turkey Shoot, she might have been useful.

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

In Shinano's case, a "support carrier" was a distinctly combat-oriented type meant to take the "point position" in battle. Closest to the enemy, she would suffer the greatest concentration of attack, and she would be in position to allow planes to shuttle from other carriers and thus effectively increase the strike range for those planes.

I never thought about her that way, but the idea makes a great deal of sense. Had she been available in 1942, she might actually have been effective in this role....even at the Turkey Shoot, she might have been useful.

Yes this is very interesting, though I have difficulty envisioning how this could work. Certainly there doesn't seem to be any way to represent this in WiTP. Do you have any literature to suggest on this subject ?

Cheers,

No, I'm not aware of any published materials that deal with it. It appears to have been something the high command dreamed up on the fly. Taiho and Shinano were to assume this duty together, and you may gauge for yourself exactly how the real world would have toyed with their plan.