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Hi, I´m playing Guadalcanal vs. a human player, were are in 10/15/42, and my 13 Rufes based in Shortland are achieving good results against B-17E´s (up to now, they shot down something close to 10 B-17´s, with about three losses to B-17´s). Question is, how a slow figher is able to intercept a much faster bomber. Rufe´s max speed is 435km/h vs. 500km/h for the B-17. You can argue that loaded B-17´s aren´t able to reach full speed, but I think it is still hard for the Rufe to reach the B-17, not to mention shot down that monster....this also raises the question on how speed can influence combat results in WiTP. For instance, would be the D4Y (550km/h) more difficult to be intercepted than the D3A (390km/h)?

This simple answer is the B-17 is slower than the fighter.
No bomber can fly loaded anywhere near it's maxium speed.

B17e max speed is 317 mph at 25,000ft but, when loaded with a crew, bombs, guns, ammo, if flys at about 180 mph.

A6M2-N Rufe max speed is 270 mph, and would try to attack from a higher altitude in a dive to gain speed and then get away.

If I was playing the allies all I would have to do is fly my B17s at max altitude of 36,000, out of range of the A6M2-N Rule (32,800 max).

ORIGINAL: pad152

This simple answer is the B-17 is slower than the fighter.
No bomber can fly loaded anywhere near it's maxium speed.

B17e max speed is 317 mph at 25,000ft but, when loaded with a crew, bombs, guns, ammo, if flys at about 180 mph.

A6M2-N Rufe max speed is 270 mph, and would try to attack from a higher altitude in a dive to gain speed and then get away.

If I was playing the allies all I would have to do is fly my B17s at max altitude of 36,000, out of range of the A6M2-N Rule (32,800 max).

And what do you want to hit when you´re coming in at 36.000 feet?[;)]

well, until patch 1.3 bomber flying in this altitude hits everything with deadly accuracy [:)]

ORIGINAL: pad152

This simple answer is the B-17 is slower than the fighter.
No bomber can fly loaded anywhere near it's maxium speed.

B17e max speed is 317 mph at 25,000ft but, when loaded with a crew, bombs, guns, ammo, if flys at about 180 mph.

A6M2-N Rufe max speed is 270 mph, and would try to attack from a higher altitude in a dive to gain speed and then get away.

If I was playing the allies all I would have to do is fly my B17s at max altitude of 36,000, out of range of the A6M2-N Rule (32,800 max).

-I think this explanation is not enough. It is unlikely that the max. speed of a B-17E will decrease by 40% because it is lodaded. Consider that propeller driven passanger aircraft, like the DC-6 or the Constellation, could fly at something close to 80%of their max speed when fully loaded. This 180mph value is probably the cruise speed of a B-17, but they could increase this speed to flee from fighters when over enemy territory. Also must consider that the B-17 isn´t fully loaded when it reached the target, since they already spent some fuel in the travel. And don´t remember that the Rufe is also loaded with fuel and anmo, so it may not be able to reach its max speed too.

the bomber crews were slipped a "rufe" and were easy prey on their bombing date [:D]

Fully loaded, the B-17s cruising speed was 170mph.

Source : Museum of the United States Air Force

So losing 40% of your top speed is not at all uncommone. Also consider that, even in fighters, you don't buzz around at your top speed (which is top speed in level flight with your thottle all the way open, btw. It's not "top speed in a dive", -THAT- gets to be VERY fast). Running a full throttle would usually burn up your engine about 7 minutes (give or take). That tends to be unhealthy for your plane, and you (esp when your chief gets a hold of you). Frankly, the "max speed" on a bomber, is fairly irrelevant. Loaded, you can't come close to your max speed. Even empty, that fighter is -still- going to run you down.

Also figure that military aircraft have a much higher load-capacity and structural integrity than transport. B-17s were MADE to carry a bunch of bricks, and drop them on somebody's head. They could (proportionatly) carry more "extra weight" than a transport, because structurally, they were made for it. The ability to carry more weight, is going to decrease your cruise speed, more than the "max weight" of a transport (hope that makes sense).

Reagrds,
-F-

Fully loaded, the B-17s cruising speed was 170mph.

-That´s exactly what I said, the question is:
1-The B-17 isn´t fully loaded when it reaches target
2-Does B-17´s fly at cruise speed over target or will it attempt to increase speed.
-Look to the fact that, historically, fast bombers. like the SB-2 in the Spanish Civil war, the Pe-2 in the East Front and the Mosquito in the Western front were very hard to be intercepted by slower fighters. From my point, it means that they were able to reach speeds close to their top speed in operational conditions.

Also consider that, even in fighters, you don't buzz around at your top speed (which is top speed in level flight with your thottle all the way open, btw. It's not "top speed in a dive", -THAT- gets to be VERY fast). Running a full throttle would usually burn up your engine about 7 minutes (give or take).

-Which makes the interception task even more difficult to Rufes and other slow fighters

Frankly, the "max speed" on a bomber, is fairly irrelevant. Loaded, you can't come close to your max speed.

-I disagree from you, given those examples of fast planes I mentioned before.

Also figure that military aircraft have a much higher load-capacity and structural integrity than transport. B-17s were MADE to carry a bunch of bricks, and drop them on somebody's head. They could (proportionatly) carry more "extra weight" than a transport, because structurally, they were made for it. The ability to carry more weight, is going to decrease your cruise speed, more than the "max weight" of a transport (hope that makes sense).

-I´m not uncertain, but planes like the Connie were able to carry up to 80 passengers, plus cargo and fuel (and their autonomy was pretty good). And it´s possible that fast medium bombers like the Mosquito could even carry more weight (proportionally to their empty weight) than the B-17. I will check this.

-Here is some data from military AF database

Mosquito B4
Empty weight: 5942
Máx weight: 10152
M/E=1,70

B-17G
Empty weight:16391
Máx weight: 29710
M/E=1,81

Found no data for the Pe-2....

Constellation (military version)
Empty weight: 36152
Max weight: 65772
M/E=1,81

Sigh.

I believe I'm actually agreeing with you on most things Bombur, no need to get defensive. I suppose the caviate is that some bombers were MADE to be fast bombers. Mossie being not the least of them. I'm not going to split hairs, but I think we can safely say that the B-17 was neither designed, or ever expected to be anyone's "fast attack bomber". Other things important besides weight ratios to "fast attack bombers" are accelation, rate of climb and dive. Of wich I'm quite sure that Mossie and Pe-2 has these in spades. Even the Do-17, which was touted as the bomber that would out-run all of the intercepters, was oops, run down by the interceptors.

My point is (lets say for medium, level-bombers), nobody expects it out-run any fighter pusuit. That's the point of the B-17 was that, they weren't going to outrun anything (and -NOT- hit 300mph, you'll just have to trust to common sense on that), so the crammed 13 machine guns on the thing. Unfortuantely, defensive arment alone proved inadaquate to fend off enemy fighters, and thus the 8th AF very quickly abandoned unescorted missions.

So again, top speed is meaningless for a bomber like B-17, Betty and the like. YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO GO YOUR TOP SPEED, UNLESS IT'S BEING SURPASSED AS YOU SPIRAL OUT OF CONTROL. Granted, fast attack bombers like Mossie and Pe-2, which are made to go in low and fast (because that surprise is their best defense), will attain a top speed (and surpass). But you're comparing apples and oranges.

-F-

I'll piggy back here for a second.

Bombur,
Combat cruise speed isn't determined solely on how fast a given aircraft can fly fully loaded with the throttles fully open. It is a compromise between several factors. Most of which have been brought to light so I won't delve.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that 4 Wright Cyclone engines at full grunt could probably move a fully loaded B-17 to and from the target at something greater than 170mph, but not much. It might have been done to targets that were 50-100mi. away, but the catch here is that most weren't. The B-17 had to make its bag of gas LAST, and one way run out of gas fast is to run at full throttle for several thousand miles.

HERE'S THE RUB: Long range missions(the Fort's Forte';) mean that fuel conservation is that factor which drives Combat cruise speeds most directly.

Additionally, flying a fully loaded B-17 at something faster than 170mph (even if you temporarily suspended reality and pretended gas was unlimited), might have been easy, however keeping formation with 100 other heavily laden forts isn't. Those pigs lost altitude when the formation leader even thought about turning. Form flight is not easy, let alone when you are flying a heavy bomber in thin air. The speed was probably determined by the lowest common denominator. The fastest speed at which 50-100 forts and their crews could:

1. Make it to the target and back on one bag of gas...

2. Maintain their formation comfortably, and thus mutual support...

3. Not burn up their engines.

As a side note if you believe Jane's, the Hornet can fly at 1.6M Let me assure you that that rarely happens and when transiting to and from a target with 2 AIM-9s, 3 external tanks, 1 GBU-12, 1 GBU-31, 250 x 20mm, 1 FLIR it's more like .85M

I believe I'm actually agreeing with you on most things Bombur, no need to get defensive. I suppose the caviate is that some bombers were MADE to be fast bombers. Mossie being not the least of them. I'm not going to split hairs, but I think we can safely say that the B-17 was neither designed, or ever expected to be anyone's "fast attack bomber". Other things important besides weight ratios to "fast attack bombers" are accelation, rate of climb and dive. Of wich I'm quite sure that Mossie and Pe-2 has these in spades.

-Agreed

Even the Do-17, which was touted as the bomber that would out-run all of the intercepters, was oops, run down by the interceptors.

-Aren´t you talking about the Do-217? The Do-17 was a much slower planes, and, even in 1936, it couldn´t outrun the I-16

My point is (lets say for medium, level-bombers), nobody expects it out-run any fighter pusuit. That's the point of the B-17 was that, they weren't going to outrun anything (and -NOT- hit 300mph, you'll just have to trust to common sense on that), so the crammed 13 machine guns on the thing. Unfortuantely, defensive arment alone proved inadaquate to fend off enemy fighters, and thus the 8th AF very quickly abandoned unescorted missions.

-Well, 300mph is too much, but couldn´t it reach 250mph in operational conditions? In that case interceptation would already had been a difficult task for Rufes.

So again, top speed is meaningless for a bomber like B-17, Betty and the like. YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO GO YOUR TOP SPEED, UNLESS IT'S BEING SURPASSED AS YOU SPIRAL OUT OF CONTROL. Granted, fast attack bombers like Mossie and Pe-2, which are made to go in low and fast (because that surprise is their best defense), will attain a top speed (and surpass). But you're comparing apples and oranges.

-Hmm....now I understand your point, you seem to be correct, but I still have doubt on how would be the best speed reached by the B-17 at operational conditions.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that 4 Wright Cyclone engines at full grunt could probably move a fully loaded B-17 to and from the target at something greater than 170mph, but not much. It might have been done to targets that were 50-100mi. away, but the catch here is that most weren't. The B-17 had to make its bag of gas LAST, and one way run out of gas fast is to run at full throttle for several thousand miles.

-Agree with you, but I don´t want the B-17 to fly at max speed all the time, the question is, how is the speed they could reach for a final run to the target, in order to avoid flak and enemy fighters (particularly if they are slow). In that case, 50-100 miles would be enough (in the Pacific, but not in Europe)

As a side note if you believe Jane's, the Hornet can fly at 1.6M Let me assure you that that rarely happens and when transiting to and from a target with 2 AIM-9s, 3 external tanks, 1 GBU-12, 1 GBU-31, 250 x 20mm, 1 FLIR it's more like .85M

-Yes, but could they reach 1.2-1.5mach when close to terget?

ORIGINAL: Bombur

As a side note if you believe Jane's, the Hornet can fly at 1.6M Let me assure you that that rarely happens and when transiting to and from a target with 2 AIM-9s, 3 external tanks, 1 GBU-12, 1 GBU-31, 250 x 20mm, 1 FLIR it's more like .85M

-Yes, but could they reach 1.2-1.5mach when close to terget?

Only if you slicked the jet off by hitting the External Jettison button, and dove from 25k' down to 10k'. Even then you'd be hard pressed cuz the pylons would still be on the wing[:'(]

Your spending too much time driving Hornets and not playing WitP.....[:D]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Bombur

As a side note if you believe Jane's, the Hornet can fly at 1.6M Let me assure you that that rarely happens and when transiting to and from a target with 2 AIM-9s, 3 external tanks, 1 GBU-12, 1 GBU-31, 250 x 20mm, 1 FLIR it's more like .85M

-Yes, but could they reach 1.2-1.5mach when close to terget?

Only if you slicked the jet off by hitting the External Jettison button, and dove from 25k' down to 10k'. Even then you'd be hard pressed cuz the pylons would still be on the wing[:'(]

Bombur, I could be wrong (happens all the time, just ask my wife *grin*), but B-17/24s didn't alter their speed on the final run to thier target. What actually happened was, the bombadier actually had a set of controls, that -he- actually took control of the aircraft, to make the slight final adjustments to the flight-path, to bring it over the target*.

* or what they also did, was have the best bombadier in the flight in the lead AC, -he- dropped, and everybody else dropped when he did.

But there are two ways to increase your airspeed in an aircraft
1. Mechanical thru more throttle or prop angle or mixture.
2. Dive.

Mechanical
a. I'm guessing there wasn't a lot of acceleration with a B-17. If you could do it, it would potentially screw up your formation. And since you're already expecting a certain drop speed and alt, I'm guessing the main task of simply simply lining up the target is hard enough (not only your own speed and alt, but air density, wind, obscurity(smoke)... 16,000 feet is a LONG way down!). But if you change your speed, your alt often changes (yep, get more lift), and now you borked all your calcuations.
b. Tight formations wouldn't handle last minute changes in speed well (which I hadn't even thot about, but was a very informative post, thank you). It tends to be dangerous.

There certainly no diving in on the target, to increase airspeed.
a. Refer back to the informative post about formation flying, which I hadn't even thot about, but definately goes in the (*nods vigorously*) catagory. I can't imagine getting 18 heavy bombers maintain formation in any kind of a dive. That tends to be REALLY dangerous.
b. Again, you've borked all your drop calcs, and now you have a changing variable (your altitude).
c. The Internal bomb-bays of the 17/24 would have prohibed this. Many of the attack bombers had external ordinance, or their bomb-bay was longer to accomodate the dive angle.

Basically, you just had to suck it up. Yes, this was the most dangerous time, the bomb run. You didn't get to alter course or speed. They just threw Flak up at you, and you prayed it didn't have your number. At least the fighters would leave you alone, because the Flak was taking it's turn (Flak knocked down far more bombers than enemy fighters).

After the bomb run, by all means, it was "get outta Dodge" time. I'd bet they -did- throw the throttle the wall and enven probably had some planned maneuver that included a dive, to get airspeed and get the he11 outta there.


Oh, and actually, yes I was referring to the Do-17. At the Spanish Civil War, it was the fastest plane to join the party. It could even keep pace with the Me-109B. The RAF made quick note the fact that it's 230/260 (cruise/top speed, note how tight this window it, it screams light-attack bomber) could run circles around their Gloster Gladiator, and thot it wise make sure their new prototypes of Hurricane and Spitfire, could do at least 300 mph.

Regards,
-F-

ORIGINAL: denisonh

Your spending too much time driving Hornets and not playing WitP.....[:D]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Bombur



-Yes, but could they reach 1.2-1.5mach when close to terget?

Only if you slicked the jet off by hitting the External Jettison button, and dove from 25k' down to 10k'. Even then you'd be hard pressed cuz the pylons would still be on the wing[:'(]

Super Hornets now my friend, even better [:D]

I'm in the market for a PBEM. Haven't had any yet with WitP. This time as the allies, got any room in your D.C. day?

Didn't you get my PM on this forum?

Super Hornet? Well excuuuuuuuuuse meeeeeee.[:D]

Check you PM.

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: denisonh

Your spending too much time driving Hornets and not playing WitP.....[:D]

ORIGINAL: TheElf



Only if you slicked the jet off by hitting the External Jettison button, and dove from 25k' down to 10k'. Even then you'd be hard pressed cuz the pylons would still be on the wing[:'(]

Super Hornets now my friend, even better [:D]

I'm in the market for a PBEM. Haven't had any yet with WitP. This time as the allies, got any room in your D.C. day?

Didn't you get my PM on this forum?

The Story of the B-17

"In 1934 the U. S. Army Air Corps asked for a battleship of the skies. The specifications called for a "multi-engine" bomber that would have a high speed of 200-250 mph at 10,000 feet, an operating speed of 170-200 mph at the same altitude, a range of 6 to 10 hours, and a service ceiling of 20,000-25,000 feet."

Here is an excerpt from some research I have been doing on the Web. I usually used works that are citable, but this website quotes the B-17 pilot training manual. Seems to be pretty accurate. The link is below

You'll note the requirements for the B-17. Notice the operating speed 170-200mph. Yes it is possible to fly faster, but remember:

"Formation flying in 4-engine airplanes presents greater problems than formation flying in smaller aircraft. The problems increase in almost direct proportion to the airplane's size and weight. In the B-17, relatively slower response to power and control changes require a much higher degree of anticipation on the part of the pilot. Therefore you must allow a greater factor of safety.

Violent maneuvers are unnecessary and seldom encountered. Close flying becomes an added hazard which accomplishes no purpose and is not even an indication of a good formation. Bear in mind that it is much more difficult to maintain position when flying with proper spacing between airplanes than with wings overlapping.

Safety first is a prerequisite of a good formation because a greater number of lives and a larger amount of equipment is in the hands of the responsible pilot in a large 4-engine airplane."

So... Formation flying, safety, fuel conservation, weight, operating speeds. These were all considerations. In order to get EVERYONE to the target, TOGETHER while maintaining mutual support, the lowest common denominator between ALL these factors had to be met.

Thus your B-17's could be caught by a Rufe [;)]

Hope this helps.

http://www.stelzriede.com/ms/html/mshwpmn1.htm#contents