Matrix Games Forums

Merchant shipbuilding? Who cares about merchant shipbuilding? Who would waste his time on a thread about merchant shipbuilding? Of all of the production issues that IJ has to worry about, surely the least of them is merchant shipbuilding. Run just one turn and you can see that you are adding almost 500 merchant shipbuilding points (MSP) to your pool every day. And since these ships aren't going to win or lose the war for you, you can pretty much just ignore the whole thing. Right?

Well anyway you could if it weren't for the fact that:

• Auxilliary conversions come from this pool
• CVEs come from this pool
• AO and TK come from this pool
• The IJ merchant shipbuilding program is not constant or even relatively so, rather it increases to grandiose proportions as the game progresses.

AS, AV, AE, AR, and MLE are all more or less useful, and all are in short supply in the IJ OOB. The beginning surplus of MSP encourages a click-fest on GT 1. But you need to have a plan here, just like you do in every other area. These conversions take 6 months and most of them cost 20 points per day each (ARs are 22 apiece). If you initiate no more than 21 of them on GT 1 (GT2 if PBEM) and make no other changes to the MS program, you should have smooth sailing. If you initiate 22 of them, you will begin to run short of MSP around the end of December, with the likely result that your CS and/or CVEs will start to experience delays. Initiate 23, and your problems start in the second week. And with 24 or more you will fall short from the first day. Plan your conversions carefully. Twenty-one conversions cost you around 81,000 MSP, for which you paid 243,000 Heavy Industry Points.

CS and CVEs are definitely useful. There are one CS (Nisshin) and two CVEs (Chuyo, Unyo) scheduled to arrive in 1942 . These would seem to be good candidates for acceleration. These are also the most expensive ships in the MS program. Accelerating the CVEs will cost you 80 additional MSP per day each, the CS costs 90. If you do all three, that is nearly the equivalent cost per day of 14 conversions. Fortunately Nisshin arrives on 2/25/42, so accelerating her isn't really necessary. You will have to balance out for yourself whether accelerating Chuyo and Unyo is worth the 7 or 8 conversions it will cost you. There are two more CVEs scheduled to arrive late in 1943. It is possible to accelerate them so that both arrive in late 1942, about a year early. This would have to be decided early on however, and would require sacrifices among other types. This would probably mean halting large AK, as these are the only ships of sufficient cost that are building this early in the MS program in sufficient quantity for this purpose. Halting 7 or 8 large AK would give you the points to do this. These AK are quite valuable however, and you only receive 15 of them in 1942 and 33 in 1943. Which do you think are more valuable in 1942, 2 CVE or 8 large AK?

There are never enough AO or TK. But look, there are 65 of them in the MS program, banzai!. Except that unless you take some kind of action you will never see most of them. Only 15 small and 5 large TK (and none of the AO) arrive before 10/8/43. What's the significance of this date? This is the date, assuming you have initiated your 25 conversions and done no accelerations, on which you will no longer have enough MSP for all your MS projects to advance. Past this date you will begin to experience serious delays in the arrival of the very ships you will probably be wanting most, your large AO and TK. You'll still get your 1000 points per day, it's just that as early as 1/10/43 your daily consumption of MSP exceeded 1000 and never looked back. By 10/16/43 it is up to 2000 points per day. High water mark is 12/28/43, 2612 points.

What's the answer? Same choices as for warships. You can expand MS centers, you can convert Naval Shipbuilding centers to MS centers (fat chance!), or you can cancel hulls. As in the case of warships, I prefer the cancellation route. A lot of these ships will never see completion anyway, and some of the ones that do, you really have to question whether they are as useful as some other ships might have been, that you could have had instead. For example, there are 12 large, 16 medium, and 26 small APs scheduled to arrive in 1944. Will you really have need of these? Surely by this time you will already have gotten most of your LCUs to the spots you have selected for them to die. The total cost of this batch of APs is 165,000 MSP. This is enough MSP not only to pay for the 19 tankers scheduled to arrive in 1944, but is also enough points to accelerate all of them into 1943. Not necessarily a recommendation, just an example of the kind of thinking IJ ought to be doing. I've made this post because I'd like to hear what other IJ players think about the relative merits of the various ship types in this program -- AP, AK, AO, TK, MSW, ML, CVE, CS, AS, AV, AE, AR, and MLE -- as well as of the ways in which the relative usefulness of each may change as the war progresses.

edit: corrected some bad numbers

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

What's the answer? Same choices as for warships. You can expand MS centers, you can convert Naval Shipbuilding centers to MS centers (fat chance!), or you can cancel hulls. As in the case of warships, I prefer the cancellation route. A lot of these ships will never see completion anyway, and some of the ones that do, you really have to question whether they are as useful as some other ships might have been, that you could have had instead. For example, there are 12 large, 16 medium, and 26 small APs scheduled to arrive in 1944. Will you really have need of these? Surely by this time you will already have gotten most of your LCUs to the spots you have selected for them to die. The total cost of this batch of APs is 165,000 MSP. This is enough MSP not only to pay for the 19 tankers scheduled to arrive in 1944, but is also enough points to accelerate all of them into 1943. Not necessarily a recommendation, just an example of the kind of thinking IJ ought to be doing. I've made this post because I'd like to hear what other IJ players think about the relative merits of the various ship types in this program -- AP, AK, AO, TK, MSW, ML, CVE, CS, AS, AV, AE, AR, and MLE -- as well as of the ways in which the relative usefulness of each may change as the war progresses.

Good points. As you get later in the game as the Japanese player, you will notice a big slowdown in naval construction. You will have to make some tough choices as to what to accelerate, what to produce normally, and what to cancel. It may be a good idea to cancel most or all of your late war ships. Do you really want to waste tons of shipbuilding points on ships that will appear in 1945? Of course, once you stop construction you are totally out of luck if you end up needing them later.

I'm not too keen on the carriers that appear after 1943. They take a huge amount of effort and by the time they appear the Allies will have tens of thousands of advanced aircraft in play. You might be better off spreading these points around to subs, destroyers, transports, and tankers. These are pretty cheap and will help you keep your economy running as long as possible after the Allied subs start to seriously attack your lines of supply.

You can probably skip the AOs as you should have enough of these from the start. There also seems to be enough AS ships. MLEs are quite useful in getting your mine fields laid. Without them you have to travel back to a size 9 port everytime to reload. There aren't too many of these in the Pacific (Pearl Harbor, Truk, Noumea, Singapore, and Soerbaja).

I'm not too keen on the carriers that appear after 1943. They take a huge amount of effort and by the time they appear the Allies will have tens of thousands of advanced aircraft in play. You might be better off spreading these points around to subs, destroyers, transports, and tankers. These are pretty cheap and will help you keep your economy running as long as possible after the Allied subs start to seriously attack your lines of supply

So would you plan to convert some naval shipyards to merchant shipyards to do this?

You can probably skip the AOs as you should have enough of these from the start.

That's a good point. I was considering them mainly as potential oil transporters, in case the allied submarines have something like their historical success at killing TK. The big ones are very expensive though.

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

So would you plan to convert some naval shipyards to merchant shipyards to do this?

I haven't looked too closely at the numbers. It is possible some conversions would be necessary. Though canceling late war AOs and APs may be enough. Also, you'll need to speed along the construction of PCs and DDs for convoy work. The construction of a single carrier consumes a lot of resources. Is it really worth it if it gets sunk as soon as it leaves port?

Agreed, carriers are only worthwhile if they arrive early enough to be used before the odds turn ugly.

My ship building plans are like this - at least for the first 6 months of the war...

Accelerate the first 3-4 carriers that will arrive. I then go through and accelerate the first half dozen or so TKs.. I never accelerate AKs or APs - you have plenty at war start and if your are a little bit careful, they will last you a long time.

Next I convert around 25 AKs.... of them, 20 are converted into ARs the rest are usually MLE. The reason I see is this.. The key to winning the game (not the war) as japan is keeping your ships at sea where they are useful and can prevent the US from island hopping... In order to do this you need to be able to repair the damage as fast as possible and since japan starts with 1 lonely AR you need a lot more... Japan can NEVER produce enough ships to win, but by saving all that you can from sinking and repairing them back into service its like getting extra ships...

I also halt most construction of the late war CVs as the game will be over by then... I plan to win in 43, or first part of 44... If not, I will lose.. My strategy is to win in late 43, so i plan accordingly.. Anything arriving past early 44 is halted (if posible) as I will not need it... TKs are the most important merchie you have, so protect them and rush all possible building of them. Without TKs you cannot haul oil from the DEI back to japan... Doesnt matter if you have 2,000,000 oil sitting in Palembang... if you can't get it to japan it doesn't exist.. so TKs are the most important.. TKs are just as usefull even after allied air superiority make your CVs useless - so plan.... CVs are good til mid or late 43, then they are targets and have no real chance against allied air power... So getting more CVs in late 43 or 44 is a waste of naval points and allows the allies more targets to sink for good VP values.

Xargun

Do all of the auxilleries come out of the MS pool? MSWs, MLs, PCs, CS and AV?

As for the conversions, I have never started more than a dozen or so.

I think some conversions are necessary and useful. I'm not sure that 20 or more are really needed though.

AR ... you only start with 1 and there are no more in the que. So how many do you want?
Well, look ahead and try to figure out where you are going to want them. At least 1 in each of your 3 level 10 ports... 1 each in Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai ... probably 1 each for Truk, Rabaul, Saigon or Manila and maybe one for Soerjaba. So that comes out to 10, minus the one you already have = 9 to start out with. You can convert some for spares and other ports later.

AS ... I believe you start with 8 and have 1 or 2 in the que. You certainly need them, but seem to have enough to start with. I've never converted any extras at the start.

AV ... Quite useful. I think you start with 5 and have 1 or 2 in the que. I usually don't convert any on turn one with plans to convert 5 or 6 down the road.

MLE ... You need these, but how many? I would start at least 3 on turn one.

AE ... You have 2. I don't understand what they are supposed to be for... they seem useless to me.

Anyway I like to switch all of my small MS yards 30 and under to naval production and then start expanding them. That leaves me with 935 MS production, which seems to be plenty. If I start 12 conversions on turn one I have enough to accelerate 3 of the the conversions from day1 and the pool will still go up. I then watch the pool and accelerate other ships when it gets over 500 and deaccelerate them when it gets below 150 or so.

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

Do all of the auxilleries come out of the MS pool? MSWs, MLs, PCs, CS and AV?

As for the conversions, I have never started more than a dozen or so.

I think some conversions are necessary and useful. I'm not sure that 20 or more are really needed though.

AR ... you only start with 1 and there are no more in the que. So how many do you want?
Well, look ahead and try to figure out where you are going to want them. At least 1 in each of your 3 level 10 ports... 1 each in Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai ... probably 1 each for Truk, Rabaul, Saigon or Manila and maybe one for Soerjaba. So that comes out to 10, minus the one you already have = 9 to start out with. You can convert some for spares and other ports later.

Why only 1 ?? ARs stack.. up to 4 per port for max benefits.. Also, only 1 AR means only 4 ships benefit from it being there.. I plan on having 4 in each of my 3-4 large repair bases in Japan.. Then I will have a few to put in places like Truk, Singapore, etc...

AS ... I believe you start with 8 and have 1 or 2 in the que. You certainly need them, but seem to have enough to start with. I've never converted any extras at the start.

This depends on how you use your subs... If you use your subs conservatively or not much at all, you will need less.. I am fairly aggressive with my subs.. if my sub sinks a cruiser and dies, its a sub well spent. Also.. I plan to convert more at the beginning of the game when I have plenty of shipbuilding points (and oil) and save them til I need them in the later half of the game when I am short on everything.

AV ... Quite useful. I think you start with 5 and have 1 or 2 in the que. I usually don't convert any on turn one with plans to convert 5 or 6 down the road.

MLE ... You need these, but how many? I would start at least 3 on turn one.

I think I converted 3 or 4 with plans to convert a few more.. I can think of several places they can be used.. and I want replacements for when I have to rotate them home for repairs.

AE ... You have 2. I don't understand what they are supposed to be for... they seem useless to me.

Later in the game they allow you to replenish CV and warships at sea.. very useful. Plus with the house rules I am using, I need AEs in ports smaller than 3 to reload ammo on capital ships..

Anyway I like to switch all of my small MS yards 30 and under to naval production and then start expanding them. That leaves me with 935 MS production, which seems to be plenty. If I start 12 conversions on turn one I have enough to accelerate 3 of the the conversions from day1 and the pool will still go up. I then watch the pool and accelerate other ships when it gets over 500 and deaccelerate them when it gets below 150 or so.

I never convert any Merchant yards into naval yards - there is no reason to. You don't have enough ships in the cue to make this worthwhile... You have enough naval yards (with some expansion) to produce a steady stream of ships and the merchant yards are too useful - all conversions, all merchant ships - particularly TKs, CVEs, etc... If I find later in the war I have too many merchant yards working, I can simply halt or convert them then.

I plan on the long haul, so I try to make all my conversion needs early in the war when pushing back the date on some other ships won't make that big of a deal - AND I have all the HI and Oil I need to run my shipyards... Later in the war when you realize you need more converted ships - you have to make a big choice about whether to convert and so forth.. doing it early frees you from having to make such decisions, as you have plenty of everything..

Xargun

AEsare only useful if you are playing with house rules restricting reammunitioning of ships to naval bases (those bases with actual naval base units) or those bases where an AE is present. With no house rules any warship TF can rearm at my mom's house.

I also halt most construction of the late war CVs as the game will be over by then... I plan to win in 43, or first part of 44... If not, I will lose.. My strategy is to win in late 43, so i plan accordingly.. Anything arriving past early 44 is halted (if posible) as I will not need it... TKs are the most important merchie you have, so protect them and rush all possible building of them. Without TKs you cannot haul oil from the DEI back to japan... Doesnt matter if you have 2,000,000 oil sitting in Palembang... if you can't get it to japan it doesn't exist.. so TKs are the most important.. TKs are just as usefull even after allied air superiority make your CVs useless - so plan.... CVs are good til mid or late 43, then they are targets and have no real chance against allied air power... So getting more CVs in late 43 or 44 is a waste of naval points and allows the allies more targets to sink for good VP values.

Xargun, this is basically the way I see it too. Any CV, CVL, CVE that I cannot contrive to arrive by 6/30/43 is cancelled. TKs and DDs are accelerated. There is not really much point in accelerating smaller escorts as you can only get them a month ahead of schedule. The B1 subs are good, all the rest are worthless. Nothing against subs really, but they are so expensive.

For me AKs are the big unknown. If bunches of them get sunk, I think I need to build more. If not, I think I can fight the war with what I started with.

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

I also halt most construction of the late war CVs as the game will be over by then... I plan to win in 43, or first part of 44... If not, I will lose.. My strategy is to win in late 43, so i plan accordingly.. Anything arriving past early 44 is halted (if posible) as I will not need it... TKs are the most important merchie you have, so protect them and rush all possible building of them. Without TKs you cannot haul oil from the DEI back to japan... Doesnt matter if you have 2,000,000 oil sitting in Palembang... if you can't get it to japan it doesn't exist.. so TKs are the most important.. TKs are just as usefull even after allied air superiority make your CVs useless - so plan.... CVs are good til mid or late 43, then they are targets and have no real chance against allied air power... So getting more CVs in late 43 or 44 is a waste of naval points and allows the allies more targets to sink for good VP values.

Xargun, this is basically the way I see it too. Any CV, CVL, CVE that I cannot contrive to arrive by 6/30/43 is cancelled. TKs and DDs are accelerated. There is not really much point in accelerating smaller escorts as you can only get them a month ahead of schedule. The B1 subs are good, all the rest are worthless. Nothing against subs really, but they are so expensive.

For me AKs are the big unknown. If bunches of them get sunk, I think I need to build more. If not, I think I can fight the war with what I started with.

Since armor seems to have a positive effect incountering the uber ASW weapons, I'm going to add various degrees of armour based on the rated max depths of the individual sub designs. This coupled with the weapons tweaks I've employed togood effect has led me tobelieve that I can lower the durability of subs to a mopre realistic rating, thereby circumventing the durability=VP=construction cost.

Since armor seems to have a positive effect incountering the uber ASW weapons, I'm going to add various degrees of armour based on the rated max depths of the individual sub designs. This coupled with the weapons tweaks I've employed togood effect has led me tobelieve that I can lower the durability of subs to a mopre realistic rating, thereby circumventing the durability=VP=construction cost.

That's interesting. I have been thinking for some time that the IJN subs' durability was making them unreasonably costly compared with other ships, it is almost senseless to build them. This would be a great mod.

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Since armor seems to have a positive effect incountering the uber ASW weapons, I'm going to add various degrees of armour based on the rated max depths of the individual sub designs. This coupled with the weapons tweaks I've employed togood effect has led me tobelieve that I can lower the durability of subs to a mopre realistic rating, thereby circumventing the durability=VP=construction cost.

That's interesting. I have been thinking for some time that the IJN subs' durability was making them unreasonably costly compared with other ships, it is almost senseless to build them. This would be a great mod.

Assuming it does not pork the model![:D]

By the way, Don Bowen should post some of the Merchant ship classes and related BMPs he is incorporating in the scen that we are designing (mainly him at the moment!![:D]). Simply marvelous detail!

ORIGINAL: Xargun


I never convert any Merchant yards into naval yards - there is no reason to. You don't have enough ships in the cue to make this worthwhile... You have enough naval yards (with some expansion) to produce a steady stream of ships and the merchant yards are too useful - all conversions, all merchant ships - particularly TKs, CVEs, etc... If I find later in the war I have too many merchant yards working, I can simply halt or convert them then.

I plan on the long haul, so I try to make all my conversion needs early in the war when pushing back the date on some other ships won't make that big of a deal - AND I have all the HI and Oil I need to run my shipyards... Later in the war when you realize you need more converted ships - you have to make a big choice about whether to convert and so forth.. doing it early frees you from having to make such decisions, as you have plenty of everything..

Xargun

It doen't cost anything to switch MS yards over to NS yards. The reason I like to switch over the little ones is so that I can expand them along with all the little naval yards. This way I can ramp up naval points faster than by expanding any of the bigger naval yards ...up over 1400 in 30 days, which allows me to accelerate a bunch of stuff. If I halt Shinano I can accelerate Hiyo, Junyo, the first 3 68 point carriers (so they arrive early 43 instead of last half of 44), and all the 11 point DDs after the first 2 so I can get ships that have RADAR in the first half of 42.

It doen't cost anything to switch MS yards over to NS yards.

That's true, it costs nothing to switch them. But then they are all damaged, so you don't get any shipbuilding points until you fix them. You can fix only one point per day at any given shipyard location, and for each point repaired you burn 1000 supply. So there is the real cost of precious supply points as well as the opportunity cost of shipyards that aren't producing anything while they are damaged. Nothing in WitP is free for IJ. [;)]

Having said that, switching over the small ones and then expanding them is not a bad idea. IF you can afford the supply.

If I halt Shinano I can accelerate Hiyo, Junyo, the first 3 68 point carriers (so they arrive early 43 instead of last half of 44), and all the 11 point DDs after the first 2 so I can get ships that have RADAR in the first half of 42.

Definitely projects worth pursuing!