Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:54 am**

There is a situation developing in the Flight Sim world that could have far reaching ramifications including WITP. In a nutshell, Northrop Corp who ownes the rights to Grumman/Vought/Repuplic Aircraft and also I believe the rights to the builder who made the Yorktown class carriers has issued the following statement:

"Northrop/Grumman is requiring trademark licensing fees for the use of any aircraft, ship, boat, vehicle or weapon system that they our any of their acquired companies have ever produced. They maintain that all these things are covered by either registered trademark or “common law” trademark, sometimes both.

Upon further inquiry, he stated that all video/computer games, motion pictures, television, and toys are subject to these fees. When asked about literature, he said no.

I brought up the fact that the US government purchased these items and that they would seemingly be public domain. He said no, that both Northrop/Grumman and the US government own rights to the items."

They have gone after Ubisoft/ 1C for inclusion of Vought/Grumman/Republic Aircraft in Pacific Fighters and forced Ubisoft to pay a steep licence fee. Should they get wind of WITP they may go after Matrix. Don't belive me then read this thread:

http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.p ... adid=13370

This has far reaching ramifications, it could spell the end of our hobby as we know it. Imagine if makers of WWII AFV's get involved?

I wonder if Matrix has contacted Northrop for their permission to use the names/images of Vought/Grumman/Republic Aircraft in WITP and/or UV?

Kevin

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:26 am**

Flight sims are all the rage nowadays so I can see why they would go after them, WITP is more niche and might fall under the radar (ie too small to bother with).
On the other side of the coin, sooner or later they'll go after someone who won't back down and it'll wind up in court.
One simple thing works against Northrop and the others, history cannot be copywrited. Steven Spielberg got sued over Armistad, he won due to it being a historical incident or fact. Whether or not someone is willing to due a legal-battle a major defense corporation is another matter.

Just my thoughts,
Sincerely
Kelly

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:43 am**

Hah!

I work in a company that once tried to control the licensing rights for "hyperlinks", arguing they have a patent that includes that. I laughed my lungs out on that corporate lunacy - as if one could control the Internet.

Probably the same thing here, these clowns will go after a few American companies because they think they can, but cannot do anything for software developed outside of the US, so in the end they will have a pie in their face.

I doubt this ridiculous idea will be around 2 years from now.

F.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:52 am**

These yanks are crazy

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:56 am**

A bunch of sue happy fools is what they are.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:44 pm**

They own history? The intellectual property lawyer litter I saw in school has grown up and are now running wild. Good grief...[:(][8|]

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:03 pm**

Didn't Lockheed try this sort of a shakedown about 10 years ago with people doing sims of the F-22? If I'm remembering this right, the Air Force sent them a letter saying, in effect, we, the USAF, are paying billions of dollars for this aircraft, so that's our plane they're simulating, and they don't need to pay you a cent for it.

I almost wish that I was a developer, just so I could tell these clowns to go pound sand.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:12 pm**

ORIGINAL: kverdon

There is a situation developing in the Flight Sim world that could have far reaching ramifications including WITP. In a nutshell, Northrop Corp who ownes the rights to Grumman/Vought/Repuplic Aircraft and also I believe the rights to the builder who made the Yorktown class carriers has issued the following statement:

"Northrop/Grumman is requiring trademark licensing fees for the use of any aircraft, ship, boat, vehicle or weapon system that they our any of their acquired companies have ever produced. They maintain that all these things are covered by either registered trademark or “common law” trademark, sometimes both.

Upon further inquiry, he stated that all video/computer games, motion pictures, television, and toys are subject to these fees. When asked about literature, he said no.

I brought up the fact that the US government purchased these items and that they would seemingly be public domain. He said no, that both Northrop/Grumman and the US government own rights to the items."

They have gone after Ubisoft/ 1C for inclusion of Vought/Grumman/Republic Aircraft in Pacific Fighters and forced Ubisoft to pay a steep licence fee. Should they get wind of WITP they may go after Matrix. Don't belive me then read this thread:

http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.p ... adid=13370

This has far reaching ramifications, it could spell the end of our hobby as we know it. Imagine if makers of WWII AFV's get involved?

I wonder if Matrix has contacted Northrop for their permission to use the names/images of Vought/Grumman/Republic Aircraft in WITP and/or UV?

Kevin

Don't be so quick to dismiss this out of hand. Sadly, this trend has been ongoing for a number of years and it has been quite successful so far. I also build scale models and have an interest in model trains. Both of those hobbies are being hit hard by these type lawsuits. It is getting to the point that if the company which produces a particular model of something, doesn't pay royalties for using the name/logo etc., they will be sued out of business. The upshot of this is that the prices of everything will be going way up. So once again we the consumer, will pay to make these corporations even richer. So that some CEO somewhere can spend millions on his wife's birthday party and so that the corp. can continue to pay his billion dollar salary. This is the reality folks.

Rick

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:31 pm**

Ahhhh, capitalism. Sure is nice living in the best countries in the world. They are going after model railroaders!!?! Geezus. This is not that huge a hobby andactually promotes railroading, from the hobbyist and toy train set at Christmas to advocating the reintroduction of rail to move freight in North America. Biting the very hand that feeds ya.

(I'm an armchair model railroader. Never had a stable enough existance to buy a permanent home so I could buildthat big multilevel layout in the basement. Built an gorgeous blackash N scale coffee table layout to display my Canadian rolling stock and motive power which I add to once in a while). WTF would my ex want with that but I let her have it too. One of these days I'll start my ONR layout and blow money on a hobby as opposed to beer. But beer is sooo good)

I really don't get Capitalism and I don't think it works. True Capitalism would have welcomed Bill Gates to the finish line but for some reason, if one perfects capitalism, ya get busted. WTF is the point?

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:37 pm**

I fint the US juridicalsystem very perculiar with lawsuits for everything and huge damagepayments, out of proportion. If this will become a reality then we consumers will pay for it in the end, as said before here. But the companys will find ways to go around it. I have a friend that sells softairguns and they too are affected by this. The solution they use is simply to rename the stuff, for example the M-16A3 rifle (or whatever it is called) is named M-15A3 rifle. Or maybe they will have to make special US versions that have the things renamed, perhaps G4F4 "Wildcow" for the US players while the rest of us use the real names... [:D]

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:43 pm**

The US justice system is very simple to understand. All aspects of it were written
by lawyers for lawyers, and justice has NOTHING to do with it. It's not about who
has the best case, but who's lawyers have the best bullsh1t. Name me one other
nation in the world who's "Justice System" could LEGALLY find O.J. Simpson both
guilty AND innocent of the SAME CRIME?

I've lived here all my life, and the only way I've ever found of understanding the
US judicial system is to think of it as a social welfare program for lawyers.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:48 pm**

I agree... They will lose if it goes to court... Otherwise any historical anything (except a book) will have to pay a royalty to whoever or whatever is shown in it... They are simply trying to pressure people into paying them... A court case will eventually come up and they will lose. But until then any money they can gather is free.

Xargun

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:14 pm**

ORIGINAL: Xargun

I agree... They will lose if it goes to court... Otherwise any historical anything (except a book) will have to pay a royalty to whoever or whatever is shown in it... They are simply trying to pressure people into paying them... A court case will eventually come up and they will lose. But until then any money they can gather is free.

Xargun

The problem is, the developer of the Pacific Fighters, is a small time Russian house and rather then go to court over this bullshit they will either focus on non-American aircraft or be forced to shut their doors...no way they can survive a court room pissing match like this financially.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:31 pm**

This is old "news"..The Supreme Court already made a ruling on Dec 8th..
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/25853.html
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/g ... vol=03-409
Lest we forget,the most dangerous man in the world,is the loudest mouth at a lynch mob.
Let's not concern ourselves with foolishness.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:37 pm**

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The US justice system is very simple to understand. All aspects of it were written
by lawyers for lawyers, and justice has NOTHING to do with it. It's not about who
has the best case, but who's lawyers have the best bullsh1t. Name me one other
nation in the world who's "Justice System" could LEGALLY find O.J. Simpson both
guilty AND innocent of the SAME CRIME?

I've lived here all my life, and the only way I've ever found of understanding the
US judicial system is to think of it as a social welfare program for lawyers.

I can name Sweden. The killer of the Swedesh Prime minister in 1985 was convicted in a cort but was freed in another. He was freed in a higher court but I don't know if this was the case with OJ. Another thing I heard, from an american friend, is that they are building water pipelines in the desert bordering Mexico because some illegal immigrants died from dehydration there. A court found the state guilty and they must now build said pipelines so that the illegal immigrants can survive the trip. Can anyone confirm this?

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:58 pm**

If you self-publish, you just have to found a company in a "legally less developed" country.

The things people get sued over in the US is [:D]

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:06 pm**

I worked and lived in the US and some European countries too (outside my homeland Hungary): Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Netherlands.

Compared to these European countries, the US is a police state, where everything is governed by labels, signs, laws and lots of policemen. Sorry to say this, because I liked the american people a lot. But in effect the USA is less free than most European nations.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:15 pm**

Well, my girlfriend is american and even she cannot explain where the logic is there(everything depends on...). [:)] But the thing about this is that no matter if the company is based in the US or not it will have to put time and money investigating these issues as US is the biggest market and can't be overlooked. The end result will be a higher priced game or a worse game at the same price. We consumers lose (and the lawyers win of course).[:(]

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:24 pm**

I would call the plane something crappy and make them look a bit more ugly.

Then make it moddable.....

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:36 pm**

M10Bob,

Thanks, for the link to the train-board post. Though a Model Railroad and aware of the UP issue that has come up, I was on vacation and missed the news about the Supreme Court ruling. The ruling may do some good but the truth is that Northrop did force the Software producer to pay a licensing fee that they then deducted from the developer. The end result is that the small developer has refused to add any new planes from Vought/Grumman/Republic to their simulation. Hence, for example, though this a simulation of the Pacific war, there are no flyable US torpedo planes now nor will there be. The Supreme Court ruling could still not keep Northrop from coming after companies like Matrix as they could still sue them knowing that the Matrix would have to give in as they may not be able to afford going to court to win. I really hope someone takes Northrop to court and stops this craziness before it gets out of hand.

Matrix Games Forums

Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

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RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

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RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

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RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?

RE: Possible Northrop Torpedo headed Matrix's Way?