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...how Cam Ranh Bay ended up starting the Game as a larger Port than Singapore
or Manilla? I'm pretty sure the latter two were "devalued" to keep the Allies from
launching a totally a-historic mining campaign in the early going---but Cam Ranh
Bay was a big anchorage with virtually NO facilities at all during the 30's, 40's, and
50's. The Japanese used it as a staging and refeuling stop, but as a PORT it should
be something like a 1 (9). Only thing I can figure is it's another Japanese Fanboy
plot to allow them to be totally a-historic instead. Does anyone have a less para-
noid explanation?

Frankly I don't understand the basis for your paranoia at the first place [:D] What does it have to do with mining campaign and what are the Japanese uses for Camranh in the early going that concern you that much? Main Japanese base in that part of the world is Saigon anyway.

It is obvious WITP and UV make a compromise between natural, and man made features of harbors when assigning port level value. Camranh is excellent natural harbor without many man made features, but overall it's still worth being level 5 or 6 at start of the game I think. It was used even by Russian fleet in 1905.

O.

Oleg. I said it was an excellent anchorage. But it was not a Port/Harbor (implying
facilities available) at all. In game terms, a Port/Harbor can, depending on it's size,
provide many services for ships. Cam Ranh was just a big empty bay. No city, no
warves, no warehousing, no nothing. Just a convenient and sheltered place for an
Oiler to re-fuel other ships, or exchanging stores. For game play, it might rate a
level one. It has a lot of potential, but potential doesn't supply ammo. I was curious
why someone decided to make it much larger and more effective than two of the
premier ports in the Pacific. And there is no good answer.

To add insult to injury, if you disband your ships in Saigon the tend to get creamed by LB from Singapore, Cam Rahn is farther away, and it is safe to disband there.

Well I offered one possible answer and that is that they (developers) decided to "amalgamate" both natural and man made factors in one number. I'm not saying this is necesarilly good decision, but there is some logic to it. By your reasoning no atoll on the map, not one, should have port level of 1 at the beginning of the scenario, let alone 2 or 3. Yet, some atolls were excellent natural harbors and anchorages and obviously that's the logic for them having port levels >0. Kwajalein, Truk etc were obviously better places to be for any ship than, say, Satawal or Baker island or whatever.... designers felt they need to value that somehow and I think it's OK.

And besides that, I can't see what is the advantage for the IJN player in all this? I think you can reload torpedos only at level 8 ports. Repairs are possible only at level 6 ports. When I play as Japanese I don't need Camranh at all. Saigon is my main base there. Before I manage to develop either Saigon or Camranh to level above 6, I am supposed to take Singapore anyway, and from then on Singapore is IJN main harbor there and Camranh remains just a "well sheltered backwater".

O.

Oleg. It's true that some anchorages offerred better natural advantages than
others. But that should be viewed as potential (#), not port. Truk was developed
as the Japanese Navy's principle base in the Central Pacific well before the war.
((but not to the point of having any repair capabilitys) Kwajalein was the IJN's
forward base. In both cases the "potential" as a Harbor was excellent, but less
so as a Port as Atolls are a bit short on usable ground area. Other atolls (such as
Ulithi) remained pretty much just "potential" until the US "Fleet Train" moved in.
Other Atolls, such as Wake or Midway, have very limited potential but are important
soley for location. In 1941, Cam Ranh Bay was just "potential". So how did it become
a massive port? Somebody "screwed up". What's so hard about just saying "Hey,
You got this totally wrong!"?

Hi, A base does not always represent just the named place. The hex is 60 miles. Often a base will be given a size that includes other facilities not named. The hex is a built up area (For Indo China in 1941) The harbor is not open to intrusion by enemy subs (so it has to be at least a size 3) The French Military bases were located here.

In addition to oversized ports. I would like to add Midways airfield. Starts at level 6? How about a 3 with the possibility of construction. Also why is Noumea a max 5 airfield now?

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, A base does not always represent just the named place. The hex is 60 miles. Often a base will be given a size that includes other facilities not named. The hex is a built up area (For Indo China in 1941) The harbor is not open to intrusion by enemy subs (so it has to be at least a size 3) The French Military bases were located here.

Mogami. Your point is well taken..., but in the case of Cam Ranh Bay it doesn't hold
any water. Like Seeadler Harbor in the Admiralties, the potential was enormous, but
the infastructure wasn't there to support such a claim. And what makes you think
a submarine couldn't enter the bay? Certainly weren't any nets or minefields stopping
one in 1941. All that was there were a few depot ships and an oiler. The Japanese
Navy liked it for the same reason they liked the Pescadores. It was isolated and they
could operate unobserved by foriegners. Naval units could slip in and out without a
lot of pesky questions.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Frankly I don't understand the basis for your paranoia at the first place [:D] What does it have to do with mining campaign and what are the Japanese uses for Camranh in the early going that concern you that much? Main Japanese base in that part of the world is Saigon anyway.

I think Mike is referring to the fact that, in the absence of an MLE, only a size 9 port can resupply minelayers with mines. Singapore either starts at an 8 or is capped at an 8, which prevents the British and Dutch from using Singapore as a base for a major mining effort in the area.

ORIGINAL: Halsey

In addition to oversized ports. I would like to add Midways airfield. Starts at level 6? How about a 3 with the possibility of construction. Also why is Noumea a max 5 airfield now?

Got to agree. A base that could handle 300 A/C on Midway atoll is very far-fetched.
With the exception of the large multi-island Atolls like Truk the space for construction
and aircraft storage and crew living quarters on most of the Pacific Atolls was quite
limited. Operating even 100 A/C from most would be a stretch, barring seaplanes.
Most atolls served as staging and ferry bases to get A/C to the front. A decent runway,
some service and fueling facilities, and a tent area for crews passing through to catch
some sleep. Maybe 12-20 fighters and a dozen seaplane scouts operating permanently.

Hi, Midway Naval Air station was built pre-war. Midway did operate loaded B-17's at normal range (so it has to be a size 6)
During the Battle of Midway it was not limited by it's size but by the fact it is outside the transfer range of most aircraft.
Camrah Bay was one of the main French bases in Indo China. It had already been built by them. The Naval base of course was not nearly what it would become with US investment during the Vietnam War. But the airfields were there in 1941.

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, A base does not always represent just the named place. The hex is 60 miles. Often a base will be given a size that includes other facilities not named. The hex is a built up area (For Indo China in 1941) The harbor is not open to intrusion by enemy subs (so it has to be at least a size 3) The French Military bases were located here.

I thought I warned everybody about using the 60 mile hex wonder wimp out! I'm gonna lose it![:D]

Hi, OK Ron you have to explain that. My point is very simple. There are many places on the map that have sizes reflecting other facilities in the hex other then the base that gives the hex it's name. Port Moresby it's self is not that large an airfield, however there are at least 5 airfields in the hex and thus the "Port Moresby" hex has a larger size.
Camrahn Bay includes other facilities then just Camrahn Bay as does Pearl Harbor, Tokyo, San Fransico (the list goes on and on)
Once again where ever a person who owns WITP disagrees the simple solution is to go into the DB and edit it to the number you prefer.
There is no defense for the designers because no matter what number for aircraft rating, Bombload, range, size or what not they use there is someone out there with a contray view.
If this was a game of make believe lands and times people would just play the game and be happy. But since we all have our sources when we see something that differs we raise an eyebrow.

It is fine to post these things. Just don't expect Matrix/2by3 to change anything that the player can fix where the matter is solely one of who is right for a Database number.

(Matrix/2by3 is concerned with fixing code issues not opinion issues)

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK Ron you have to explain that. My point is very simple. There are many places on the map that have sizes reflecting other facilities in the hex other then the base that gives the hex it's name. Port Moresby it's self is not that large an airfield, however there are at least 5 airfields in the hex and thus the "Port Moresby" hex has a larger size.
Camrahn Bay includes other facilities then just Camrahn Bay as does Pearl Harbor, Tokyo, San Fransico (the list goes on and on)
Once again where ever a person who owns WITP disagrees the simple solution is to go into the DB and edit it to the number you prefer.
There is no defense for the designers because no matter what number for aircraft rating, Bombload, range, size or what not they use there is someone out there with a contray view.
If this was a game of make believe lands and times people would just play the game and be happy. But since we all have our sources when we see something that differs we raise an eyebrow.

It is fine to post these things. Just don't expect Matrix/2by3 to change anything that the player can fix where the matter is solely one of who is right for a Database number.

(Matrix/2by3 is concerned with fixing code issues not opinion issues)

Mog. It's a joke based on the fact that the explanation "it's a 60 mile hex" has been used soooo often whenever somebody complains about a feature, game design, play mechanics etc. It has become so common that it has actually been used to argue opposite points of contention. I even used it to defend how my brother always forgets where he parks his car and get's crap from his GF..."hey, it's a sixty mile hex." Nobody get's it but me but it's funny.[;)]

Relax...it was not meant to be taken too seriously.[8D]

Boy

I sure hope Mog and Kid don't give up drinking for new year.
[8|]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Midway Naval Air station was built pre-war. Midway did operate loaded B-17's at normal range (so it has to be a size 6)
During the Battle of Midway it was not limited by it's size but by the fact it is outside the transfer range of most aircraft.
Camrah Bay was one of the main French bases in Indo China. It had already been built by them. The Naval base of course was not nearly what it would become with US investment during the Vietnam War. But the airfields were there in 1941.

MOGAMI A loaded B-17 could operate from anyplace with a long enough airstrip for
it to get off the ground and a few guys to help load it. Maybe a half dozen could, as
long as they all didn't fly at once. Or very often. A real heavy bomber base, such as
we were building in Europe could theoretically service and maintain 24 A/C for action
round-the-clock. And prepare and launch them for strikes everyday. And they were
being built in threes so the whole outfit could form up and fly together.

In June of 1942, the Pacific Command put every odd and end it could on Midway with
the knowledge that Only the PBY's doing patrol would have to fly daily. Everything else
was there to fly on ONE day---the day the Japanese showed up. They even had some
B-26's trying to fly as torpedo bombers.

Yes, Midway had an air station. But it's primary purpose pre-war was as a stopping
point for the Pan American Clippers. The Naval air station was an expansion to allow
PBY's to fly reccon there as well. Then a landing strip was constructed to permit the
operation of a dozen fighters as air defense. These had just arrived when the war began.
If you parked planes on every free piece of ground and didn't care about servicing them
it might have been able to hold 50 fighters and/or PBY's at the start of the war. But it
couldn't "operate" them in a meaningful sense of the word.

Even by June, with further expansion, there just wasn't room for Midway to be a big
base. There's only so much stuff you can put of a few dozen acres of coral just a few
feet above sea-level. The runway was long enough for anything that could fly in at
the time..., and it could launch whatever was around once. After that "serviceability"
was going to be the key factor, and flights were going to be limited.

If you are going to say that a level 6 airbase can operate up to 300 aircraft, then you
can't have one on Midway. Or Wake. Or anywhere there isn't room to park, disperse
and service them, and their crews, and all the maintainence and support personel.

And the French hadn't developed Cam Ranh Bay. Why would they? They had perfecly
good ports at Haiphong and Saigon, and the entire French Naval presence in the area
didn't amount to a hill of beans. Enough to shoot up some Thai's if they got "uppity",
but no Capitol ships. If they wanted to bring big ships to the Pacific they could base
in Singapore with their allies. It was just an anchorage the Japanese found convenient
to base a few "fleet train" ships in to service their naval presense away from civilians.

I figured Midway was made a level 6 so the Japs could swoop right in and take a pre-built airfield. That way they can threaten PH right off the bat and screw the US out of the security of the only good forward base that they start with.[:D]

After all the Japanese need all the help they can get. A free 3 week move, a 5 month Zero bonus and all the supplies they need to launch Barbarossa in China.[:D]

Hi, The Japanese had over 18,000 combat troops at Camrah Bay soon afeter taking over Indo China. This does not include support units and airgroups. They had more then a few transports there. They had submarines based there. The surface combat ships that moved to escort the Malaya landing departed from Camrah Bay (not Saigon)

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The Japanese had over 18,000 combat troops at Camrah Bay soon afeter taking over Indo China. This does not include support units and airgroups. They had more then a few transports there. They had submarines based there. The surface combat ships that moved to escort the Malaya landing departed from Camrah Bay (not Saigon)

True, MOG. And they landed even more in Lyngayen Gulf...., but that doesn't make
it a Port. And they brought in a sub tender as a forward depot for their operations in
SE Asia..., but that doesn't make it a port. And they staged their surface vessels there
while waiting for the curtain to rise..., but that doesn't make it a port any more than it
does an empty bay in the Kuriles where Kido Butai staged getting ready for the PH move.

Ports (especially big ones) have warves, cranes, warehouses, docks, tugs, and a lot of
people to handle them. Cam Ranh had a big protected anchorage and maybe a shack
and a fishing dock. The Japanese brought the rest with them as fleet support vessels.
There was no port in Cam Ranh Bay in 1941.