Matrix Games Forums

Found this looking through my stuff. Found it interesting that the Suggested Retail Price (verifiable in the 1995 Publicly Available Price List)... was to be $79.97. Just thought I'd share as the topic is getting resurrected once again what with Paradox's rights and all. Figured not many have ever seen this... So without further ado. I give you: "Beyond Squad Leader"

*Applause*

Close Combat, the original [;)]

Yes, from the screen shot it resembles Close Combat 1. Or perhaps Close Combat 1/2.

Interesting. I knew Close Combat evolved from a Squad Leader license, but had no idea it came so close (apparently) to actually being published under that name.

If I remember right Battlefront was also working with SL/ASL publishers
in the development of CM in the early days.

EDIT: Big Time Software not Battlefront

ORIGINAL: Sarge

If I remember right Battlefront was also working with SL/ASL publishers
in the development of CM in the early days.

EDIT: Big Time Software not Battlefront

Yes so Paradox is 4th up to bat on this one.

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Yes, from the screen shot it resembles Close Combat 1. Or perhaps Close Combat 1/2.

There is no Close Combat 1 [;)] (to revive that old Club SSI discussion , LOL). It is just called Close Combat.



As for "Beyond Squad Leader", the working title was "Beyond Squad Leader: Omaha Beach".

It was never published. This is from an old CGO article:

"It’s a story strangely reminiscent of the Beyond Squad Leader saga of several years ago. Wargame developer Big Time Software (like developer Atomic Games) was signed by Avalon Hill to do a computer version of the classic board wargame Squad Leader. Like Atomic's Beyond Squad Leader (which became Close Combat and was published by Microsoft), Big Time’s early design was not a direct translation of the board game (although it was much closer), but instead a game in the spirit of the board game. And also like Atomic, Big Time has experienced some "strategic differences" with Avalon Hill and has broken with them on this project, taking the design (now called Combat Mission) on the road."

This is Atomics current record:

V FOR VICTORY I: UTAH BEACH (1992)
V FOR VICTORY II: VELIKIYE LUKI (1992)
V FOR VICTORY III: MARKET GARDEN (1993)
V FOR VICTORY IV: GOLD, JUNO, SWORD (1993)
WORLD AT WAR 1: OPERATION CRUSADER (1994)
WORLD AT WAR 2: STALINGRAD (1995)
WORLD AT WAR 3: D-DAY -- AMERICA INVADES (1995)
CLOSE COMBAT (1996)
CLOSE COMBAT II: A BRIDGE TOO FAR (1997)
CLOSE COMBAT III: THE RUSSIAN FRONT (1998)
CLOSE COMBAT IV: BATTLE OF THE BULGE (1999)
CLOSE COMBAT V: INVASION NORMANDY (2000)
HAMMER'S SLAMMERS (2000/CANCELLED)

HAMMER'S SLAMMERS (2000/CANCELLED) [;)]

Hover tanks and laser beams. I used to read those books too. HeHe, Nice try Marc

Hmmm... not so sure that's a spoof ? There were certainly HS miniatures around, and presumably there was an associated rules set.

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

As for "Beyond Squad Leader", the working title was "Beyond Squad Leader: Omaha Beach".

So why does the box cover art just say "Beyond Squad Leader" then? Where did you get that piece of info from? I've never heard that before.

ORIGINAL: gunny

HAMMER'S SLAMMERS (2000/CANCELLED) [;)]

Hover tanks and laser beams. I used to read those books too. HeHe, Nice try Marc

[&:]

ORIGINAL: Veldor

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

As for "Beyond Squad Leader", the working title was "Beyond Squad Leader: Omaha Beach".

So why does the box cover art just say "Beyond Squad Leader" then? Where did you get that piece of info from? I've never heard that before.

I just know it, very old interview with Keith Zabalaoui, CEO of Atomic [;)]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

ORIGINAL: gunny

HAMMER'S SLAMMERS (2000/CANCELLED) [;)]

Hover tanks and laser beams. I used to read those books too. HeHe, Nice try Marc

[&:]

OK so there actually was a Hammers Slammers in the works. That one slipped by me (I was overseas at the time). I'm kinda glad I didn't know about it as I would have been disappointed with its cancellation.[:o]

Edited to add a red faced emoticon.

Everything Marc has said is correct. Heck......ask Eric Young....he may tell the whole story again at some point.

Another little factoid....when "CC" was in development at 360 Pacific......it was known for a long time as "Project X" for a variety of reasons.

@gunny

If you do some searching of the web, there is a least one former Atomic artist who has screens of the Hammer's Slammers game that was in development before it was cancelled by the Gore Technologies Group.

yeah all true, BSL became CC. I have the tee shirt to prove it.

E

ORIGINAL: old man of the sea

yeah all true, BSL became CC. I have the tee shirt to prove it.

E

I buy it ! It would even fit me [:D]

Why can't they just make a Squad Leader game a Squad Leader game and quit mucking with trying to fancy up the graphics or turn it into some real time special?

All "WE" want and I bet I speak for most grogs on this, is a board game to computer conversion of Squad Leader. No fancy smancy graphics, just good ole hex based, card board pieces and detailed maps (random map feature of course) and the ruleset of the origional Squad Leader.

So far the Combat Mission series and the Steel Panthers series is as close as I've seen, I'm not a fan of the Close Combat series at all. But, even those two aren't what "WE" (heh, Imdaleadah) want.

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Why can't they just make a Squad Leader game a Squad Leader game and quit mucking with trying to fancy up the graphics or turn it into some real time special?

All "WE" want and I bet I speak for most grogs on this, is a board game to computer conversion of Squad Leader. No fancy smancy graphics, just good ole hex based, card board pieces and detailed maps (random map feature of course) and the ruleset of the origional Squad Leader.

So far the Combat Mission series and the Steel Panthers series is as close as I've seen, I'm not a fan of the Close Combat series at all. But, even those two aren't what "WE" (heh, Imdaleadah) want.

I agree. Closest thing I play is Squad Battles I prefer over CM and SPWAW, maybe CL will knock it from the top for me. A similar interface and graphics would be superb.

I did love Close Combat though.

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Why can't they just make a Squad Leader game a Squad Leader game and quit mucking with trying to fancy up the graphics or turn it into some real time special?

Because the licensing is still worth too much / costs too much to do that. A TRUE adaption wouldn't sell enough copies and would be too difficult a game to make given that (witness the amount of time CL alone is taking).

Plus, I'd argue, that some elements of the design aren't as suited for direct PC conversion. And likely other designs, such as Combat Leader, can be much better games.

But likely that wouldn't matter, even the worst though faithful SL/ASL game would do well enough in wargamer circles, but that's probably just not enough.

The part that I don't follow is that I don't much see how the SQUAD LEADER BRAND has much of a value to the non-wargaming public (In fact if any of the public remembers the Microprose SQUAD LEADER disaster it might actually have negative value).. So if you are going to make a totally unfaithful game you might as well call it TANKS 'N GUNS for all they would care. So it would have to be the fact that they can then sell it to all the buying public + the REAL wargamers/SL fanatics. Most of whom probably will in actuality still buy anything with the SL name if only just to try it. Which would imply that wargamers are in fact a sizeable enough market to still warrant the branding purchase.

In reality though I believe that because Paradox has a tie to Atari the reasoning is as simple as they are getting some kind of super deal on the licensing, so why not use the name then?

I still have high hopes for Paradox's ventures with SL. I know it won't be much at all like the real deal but as long as by RTS they mean "Close Combat" and not "Command & Conquer" it could well be a good game. And having hopefully learned some valuable lessons from the HOI experiences who knows?

Maybe Paradox's Squad Leader will become a legend amongst wargamers in its own right?

Wouldn't suggest holding your breath though....

ORIGINAL: Veldor
The part that I don't follow is that I don't much see how the SQUAD LEADER BRAND has much of a value to the non-wargaming public

They have done that to Axis & Allies though. Perhaps it's a more recognisable brand name, but the latest release has absolutely nothing in common with the original board game.

Close Combat was years ahead of it's time, a shame the franchise died as it didn't play like an RTS, and demonstrated how the PC could enhance board game rules. I played the Arnheim and Russia games to death, it felt like a decent tactical command sim. I especially enjoyed the AI not following orders, or being supressed.

IMHO, they should have stuck to infantry battles (they never quite got the vehicles to behave as realistically as the men) and not tried to make campaign games.