Matrix Games Forums

Several Forum members are combining their efforts to produce a new scenario for War In the Pacific. This will be a full war scenario, based on the standard Scenario 15, with a possible extension into 1946. Attention will be paid to historical accuracy and detail. It has previously been referred to as “Ron Saueracker/Tankerace/Don Bowen's Mod“.

The scenario will be based on two “released” modified scenarios (Lemurs, Andrew Brown) and several others that have been completed for earlier WITP versions. It will feature a new map (Andrew Brown), tons of new artwork, many new ship classes and aircraft types, expanded Orders of Battle, and adjusted land unit Table of Organizations. We hope to merge the best of everyone’s work to produce an accurate and playable scenario.

A number of threads are being opened to group comments in different areas (devices, aircraft, artwork, etc). Please post in the most applicable one.

Please post Land Unit Order of Battle comments in this thread.

Ha, forgot I had this site's link saved.

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/014 ... __ighq.htm

Gives a complete breakdown of every Japanese TO&E on Dec 7, 1941

Japanese Division TO&E Work in progress.

Triangle divisions:

432 Infantry squads
24 Motorized squads
18 70mm Infantry guns
48 75mm Field guns
12 105mm Howitzers
18 37mm AT guns
72 MMG
216 LMG
33 light tanks
50 Engineer squads
489 support squads

Should we give the Square divisions their correct number of squads?

Some of these divisions had a regiment detached for security purposes and eventually they were all made triangle.

Mike

I am not really sure. We may need a test game using one of our "proper" divisions vs say the Hong Kong garrison. That way we can see how it fairs. I can almost always secure HK by 20 Dec 41. Using the 38th, 3 Engineer Reg, 3 Art units.

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Should we give the Square divisions their correct number of squads?

Some of these divisions had a regiment detached for security purposes and eventually they were all made triangle.

Mike

Why not designate one of the 4 regiments as such and use them for the historical purpose such as the security of garrisons & Lines of supply. If that is implemented and explained in the readme, land combat might make more sense to navy boys like myself.

I am quickly learning that security dets are very necessary. Adds realism to the :and combat engine and might slow down the average advance. Not that anyone would HAVE to use a security regiment as such

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Should we give the Square divisions their correct number of squads?

Some of these divisions had a regiment detached for security purposes and eventually they were all made triangle.

Mike

Why not designate one of the 4 regiments as such and use them for the historical purpose such as the security of garrisons & Lines of supply. If that is implemented and explained in the readme, land combat might make more sense to navy boys like myself.

I am quickly learning that security dets are very necessary. Adds realism to the :and combat engine and might slow down the average advance. Not that anyone would HAVE to use a security regiment as such

U.S. Square divisions were quickly triangularized (is that a word?) and the extra regiment made available for other duties. Many of the troops used in the initial reinforcement "rush" in the first half of 1942 came from these "fourth" regiments. Further, we do not have the ability to migrate TOEs so once a division is declared a "square" formation it is forever square.

I believe we should create all U.S. Infantry Divisions as Triangular and designate the extra regiments as independent. Not the 1st Cav, of course, and there's some problem with units that switched divisions (34th, 161st for example) but triangular works most of the time.

For security detachments it would be great if Regiments could be divided into battalions. Also, we could use a better handling of "Brigades". There are a few Japanese Brigades in the game but most of the units designated as Brigade are the British/Commonwealth regiment sized units. Would love to be able to divide them into battalions as well.

Another thing I have seen, the Japanese brigades have a TO&E of 303 infantry squads.

Should be closer to 288 squads when at full strength. Not a big deal I guess. It is only 15 squads difference.

Using orbat:

There is a garrison at Thursday Island and almost a full brigade at Port Moresby on December 8th, 1942



damn.....it came out too light.....I will have to manually post

Lets try this one....

Don,
I agree with you on triangularizing all of the American divisions.

The Japanese brigades are about 15 squads high. There are quite a few units missing, however, as the square divisions have the same TO&E as the triangular.

Mike

The square divisions are the left over organization from WW1. The Army went almost exclusively to triangular divisions for WW2 with few exceptions.

To put things in their proper place this post - and the next one - are copied over from the LCU/TO&E thread, where I originally posted


Listed below are the 16 US Divisions and 5 HQs from Europe that would have participated in the planned invasion of Japan if the war had continued. With one exception, these units were to be part of Operation Coronet, the March 1946 invasion of the Tokyo Plain.

Each row contains the following information:
Division . . . # days in combat in Europe / battle casualties . . . proposed experience/morale rating . . . month unit actually arrived in US from Europe – proposed date unit would be available for deployment from San Francisco . . . name of division commander.


Unit . . . . .Days/ Losses . . . . Exp/Mor . . .To US/ to PTO. . . .Commander

2nd . . . . . 303/ 15,000 . . . . .85/65 . . . . .7/45 --10/45. . . . .MG Almond, E.M.
4th . . . . . .299/ 22,000 . . . . .85/60 . . . . .7/45 – 10/45 . . . . MG Hays, G.P.
5th . . . . . .270/ 12,000 . . . . .80/65 . . . . .7/45 – 10/45 . . . . MG Brown, A.E.
8th . . . . . .266/ 13,000 . . . . .80/65 . . . . .7/45 – 10/45 . . . . MG Miley, W.M.
28th . . . . .196/ 16,000 . . . . .80/65 . . . . . 8/45 – 11/45 . . . .MG Cota, N.D.
35th . . . . .264/ 15,000 . . . . .80/65 . . . . . 9/45 – 12/45 . . . .MG Baade, P.W.
42nd . . . . 106/ 3,000. . . . . . 75/75 . . . . . never -10/45 . . . .MG Collins, H.J.
44th . . . . .230/ 10,000 . . . . .80/70 . . . . . 7/45 – 10/45 . . . .MG Dean, W.F.
86th . . . . .34/ <1,000 . . . . . .65/80 . . . . . 6/45 – 8/45 . . . . MG Melasky, H.M.
87th . . . . .134/ 5,000 . . . . . .75/70 . . . . . 7/45 – 10/45 . . . .MG Culin, F.L.
91st . . . . .200+/unknown . . .80/70 . . . . . . 9/45 – 12/45 . . . MG Livesay, W.G.
95th . . . . .151/ 6,000 . . . . . .75/70 . . . . . .6/45 – 9/45 . . . . MG Twaddle, H.L.
97th* . . . .31/ <1,000 . . . . . .65/80 . . . . . .6/45 – 9/45 . . . . MG Halsey, M.B.
104th . . . .178/ 7,000 . . . . . . 75/70 . . . . . .6/45 – 9/45 . . . . MG Allen, T.
13Armor* .16/ <1,000 . . . . . . 60/80 . . . . . .7/45 – 10/45 . . . MG Millikin, J.
20Armor* . 8/ <1,000. . . . . . .60/80 . . . . . . 8/45 – 11/45 . . .MG Leonard, J.W.


Headquarters

III Corps* – LTG Van Fleet, J.A. arrive 10/45
V Corps – MG Huebner, C.R. arrive 11/45
VII Corps – LTG Collins, J.L. arrive 12/45
XVIII Corps – MG Ridgway, M arrive 12/45

First Army* – LTG Hodges, C.H. arrive 12/45

* = Unit already in Scenario 15 database (ver 1.3)


Bibliography:
1. For European Divisions assigned to the invasion of Japan:
“The Devil was in the Details”; D.M. Giangreco; JFQ June 1995 (magazine Article about Operation Downfall)

2. For dates that divisions arrived in the US from the ETO, and the names of their commanders:
Combat Chronicles of U.S. Army Divisions in World War II
U.S. Army Center for Military History web site giving brief history of Army divisions : an on-line compendium reproduced from The Army Almanac: A Book of Facts Concerning the Army of the United States, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1950, pp. 510-592.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/lineage/cc/cc.htm

3. For days in combat and casualties suffered by divisions in Europe:
ORDER OF BATTLE OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY WORLD WAR II EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS: DIVISIONS
OFFICE OF THE THEATER HISTORIAN: PARIS, FRANCE: December 1945
- - -

The next post contains my explanatory notes, suggestions for cleaning up the database, and recommendation to reduce the number of small units by attaching independent battalions to the late-arriving European Divisions.

Notes:
The 91st Infantry division fought in Italy, and there is no official estimate of its casualties, or days in combat. It began fighting near Rome in June, 1944 and fought constantly in Italy until the Spring of 1945. It likely had well over 200 days of combat, and 10k casualties.

The 86th and the 97th Divisions actually did ship out from San Francisco to the Philippines on the dates indicated. Except for the 42nd Division, all other divisions are assumed to be available for deployment to the Pacific three months after their arrival in the US from Europe.

According to Giancreco, the 42nd Infantry Division – the division MacArthur commanded in WWI -- was the only European unit slated to participate in the November 1st Operation Olympic invasion. Oddly, the division never shipped from Europe to the States. It is hard to imagine how it could have arrived in the PTO in time and in shape to participate in Olympic. To allow at least the possibility, I have made it available in San Francisco on October 1st, 1945.

Experience and Morale: Experience is based on days in combat. Morale is inversely related to battle casualties. The US began rapidly demobilizing its European divisions well before Japan surrendered. Veteran soldiers were discharged first. There would have been severe morale problems if the US had refused to release veterans in the units earmarked for the Pacific, while others were sent home. But the army had little choice – the alternative was to release all the veterans and send green troops to the PTO for the invasion.

I have not attempted to rate the division or HQ commanders. The Army commander (Hodges), three of the corps commanders (Collins, Ridgway, Van Fleet) and one division commander (“Terrible Terry” Allen of the 104th) have historically been regarded as capable-to-excellent commanders.


Database Cleanup:

The US First Army HQ is already in the database (111). Change the commander to Hodges, and the arrival date to 451215.

The III Corps (159) starts (!) the game in San Francisco. Change the arrival date to 451015.

There are duplicate IX Corps in the database (160, 164). Remove 164.

Three of the European Divisions are in the database (13 Armor - 3250, 20 Armor - 3251, 97 Infantry – 3252) as 8/45 reinforcements. Change their arrival dates, and the names of their division commanders.


Proposed TO&E Adjustments for Divisions arriving from Europe.

The 16 Divisions arriving from Europe would have been augmented by the artillery, armor, tank destroyer, engineer and other support battalions of four corps and an army. By folding the corps and army support into each division’s TO&E as proposed below, we can limit the number of new units to twelve – 16 Divisions plus 5 HQs, minus 3 Divisions already in the database, minus 2 HQs already in the database, minus 4 redundant battalions eliminated from the database.

Attached Artillery and Engineer Battalions (All 16 Divisions)
450 155mm Howitzer +12
251 Engineers +27
252 Support +39

Attached One-half Tank Battalion (The 14 Infantry Divisions Only)
474 M4 Sherman 18
472 M24 Chafee 8
474 M4 Sherman CS 3
468 81mm Halftrack 5
253 Motor Support 33

(FYI, this represents the attachment of seven tank battalions: the 28th, 762nd and 766th, which fought in the PTO but are not in the database, the 779th and 785th which are listed as 8/45 reinforcements, the 812th which was in the US, and one additional battalion shipped over from Europe).

Attached Tank Destroyer Battalion (The 2 Armor Divisions Only)
477 M10 Tank Destroyer 36
471 M5 Stuart Light Tank 8
467 M3 Halftrack 33
253 Motor Support +69

(FYI, this represents the attachment of the 671st and 806th Tank Destroyer Battalions, which are in the database as 1945 reinforcements).

Along with the above changes, delete the following units from the database: the 779th and the 785th Tank Battalions, the 671st and 806th Tank Destroyer Battalions. (units 3247, 3248, 3229, 3249)

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Lets try this one....

This data came from a very interesting book named Torres Strait Force - Cape York, Thursday Island - Merauke - 1942-1945 by Reg A. Ball (ISBN 0-646-20749-0). I have a copy in my library and used the data to berate Matrix for the inclusion of Coen and Thursday Island in Uncommon Valour (to no avail).

A interesting subject of the book is Merauke - the provincial capital of Dutch New Guinea and the only provincial capital over which the Dutch flag flew during the entire war. It's garrison was a single Dutch Fusilier company (really a weapons company). Australian and U.S. reinforcements arrived later and Merauke received at least two of the surviving Marmon-Harrington Tanks.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Lets try this one....

This data came from a very interesting book named Torres Strait Force - Cape York, Thursday Island - Merauke - 1942-1945 by Reg A. Ball (ISBN 0-646-20749-0). I have a copy in my library and used the data to berate Matrix for the inclusion of Coen and Thursday Island in Uncommon Valour (to no avail).

A interesting subject of the book is Merauke - the provincial capital of Dutch New Guinea and the only provincial capital over which the Dutch flag flew during the entire war. It's garrison was a single Dutch Fusilier company (really a weapons company). Australian and U.S. reinforcements arrived later and Merauke received at least two of the surviving Marmon-Harrington Tanks.

Torres Strait Light Infantry Battalion (Thursday Island). Saw this at www.anzacday.org.au/history/ww2/bfa/isl ... nders.html

Check this out.

Are we discussing OOB's or TO&E's here? I would like to see the the US Chemical Mortar BN's added:

36 4.2 inch mortars
30 Support

71st CMB - 22Jul1944
80th CMB - 26Jan1945
85th CMB - 20Jul1944
88th CMB - 30Apr1944

Both OOBs and TOEs

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Both OOBs and TOEs

Actually we have two separate threads for OOB and TOE. The TOE thread is for the makeup of an individual unit type (what's in a division, etc) and the OOB thread for this units are present, where and when.

We will rework Land units in three stages:

1. Determine device changes and additions
2. Re-work TOEs (Locations 2000-2120 for the allied, etc)
3. Re-work Individual land units, with TOE (formation) assignment (if any), location, arrival, commander, etc.

Don

I just checked out the OOB link 2ndACR posted earlier. Very interesting. I noticed that there was some information on the Royal Thai army. I had no idea they sported a whopping 7 divisions! Any plans on adding Thailand to the Japanese OOB?