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I have seen in other posts the idea of having two TFs for a transport/landing mission - one is the first assualt units, the other is the base and support stuff. You hit the beach with the assualt troops, take it then unload the supply guys. Sounds a good idea to me, and replicates the way it should happen.

In order to do this I need to have a way, other than trial and error, to work out the size of the TF I need to transport whatever I want to transport. Now there may be a simple formula to do this in my head, or it may require major mathematics... I can't see what the rule is so i cannot at this stage come up with either a bit of mental arithmetic, or an excel spreadhseet that i could use.

Can anyone out there enlighten me how I could for example get the realtionship between a specific unit and its space requiremenst for its luxury cruise accomodation?

Apologies if i am being unduly thick about all this.[&:]

Roger

I always take the load cost of the unit in quaedtion on a AP freighter and double that amount for suplies to take with me in ak's for major combat units. lesser units get the same load cost in ak load

Don't be stingy with APs. When I am loading up for an amphib op, I'm not thinking "how few APs can I get away with using", rather it is "how fast can I get these LCUs completely unloaded." How long it takes the unit to fully unload depends on how many load points are on each AP. If your 10,000 point LCU is loaded onto 4 APs (2500 points/AP), it is going to take you a few days to get all your boots on the ground. OTOH, if you put that same LCU on 25 APs (400 points/AP), you can unload everyone before the first land combat phase. Judicious use of this concept can mean the difference between success and failure in opposed landings (especially on atolls where you will have to make that nasty automatic shock attack on day 1).

If unloading speed is not an issue, I'll pick enough APs to carry 2X or so what the LCU info screen tells me that unit requires. Never use fewer than 2 APs to carry any LCU (prevents total loss in case it gets sunk). Never try to load more than one LCU at a time in any TF. If you have multiple LCUs to load, form a separate TF for each. Once loading has begun, you can dump all the TFs together into one. Don't include APs that have spent op points that turn; results are unpredictable. If this means you don't have enough APs, wait a turn.

Use "load troops only" for your APs, load your supplies onto AKs, then include one or more loaded AKs with the first wave. This has several advantages: supplies unload along with the guys instead of after, and AKs carry supplies more efficiently than APs do. This efficiency means that not only can bring more supplies per load point, but they load and unload faster, point per point. This means faster turnaround loading and unloading, as does the fact that you no longer have to wait for the APs to load/unload supply after the LCUs.

Use "load troops only" for your APs, load your supplies onto AKs, then include one or more loaded AKs with the first wave. This has several advantages: supplies unload along with the guys instead of after, and AKs carry supplies more efficiently than APs do. This efficiency means that not only can bring more supplies per load point, but they load and unload faster, point per point. This means faster turnaround loading and unloading, as does the fact that you no longer have to wait for the APs to load/unload supply after the LCUs.

Generally I'm in agreement with everything you said, irrelevant. However, I would like to make one slight recommendation for amphibious assaults that appears different than you are suggesting.

As Japanese, I use only 1500-capacity AP's for amphibious invasions. I also do NOT use load only troops. I ensure this is at least 30% more capacity than the actual load factor of the units, and often double the capacity. It has been my experience that using AK's to unload those first supplies is way too slow. I can get my landing units supplies much more quickly by having them right on the AP's. I never attack an occupied invasion hex until my units show supplies on their unit detail screen. Using AK's to unload supplies over a beach has proven to be much slower than actually loading initial supplies on the AP's.

Also, I use a second task force with 3000-cap AP's and 3500-cap AK's for followup troops and supplies, respectively. This TF is set to follow the amphibious TF. It will stay in the invasion hex, under the protection of surface forces and LRCAP, until it is given the hex as a destination and the Do Not Unload is turned off. This is done after the base is captured. If I expect a long battle, I may go ahead and unload these over-the-beach. For these followup TF's, I do use the Load Only Troops option.

So, Amphib TF with troops and supplies is followed (i.e. orders set to follow) by a Surface Combat and/or Bombardment TF as well as a Transport TF carrying any followup troops (usually BF's) and more supply.

I never attack an occupied invasion hex until my units show supplies on their unit detail screen.

If you bring supplies on an AK, your units will have supplies immediately. I just don't like to wait.[;)] And anyway, one is not always able to wait....

Also, I use a second task force with 3000-cap AP's and 3500-cap AK's for followup troops and supplies, respectively. This TF is set to follow the amphibious TF. It will stay in the invasion hex, under the protection of surface forces and LRCAP, until it is given the hex as a destination and the Do Not Unload is turned off. This is done after the base is captured. If I expect a long battle, I may go ahead and unload these over-the-beach. For these followup TF's, I do use the Load Only Troops option.

So, Amphib TF with troops and supplies is followed (i.e. orders set to follow) by a Surface Combat and/or Bombardment TF as well as a Transport TF carrying any followup troops (usually BF's) and more supply.

All excellent advice. The way I use APs though, it rarely matters whether they are 1500s or 3000s. I'm never anywhere near capacity.

SCTFs are mandatory. Not having an SCTF accompany the transports is to invite disaster. I only bombard the turn the LCUs will make their assault; the SCTF can usually pull double duty here.

I like to bring an ASW TF as well. Just a DD division to keep subs away from the transports.

Bring minesweepers too. They can double as screen for the assault transports. Put a CL in with them too, it'll soak up much of the CD fire. A Katori is ideal; what else can you use them for?[;)]

Roger, I think the rule of thumb is to add between one-quarter to one-third of the AP load factor shown in the LCU screen. This should provide enough slack to work. I think that the number gets further off when you load equipment that APs cannot efficiently carry - like armor or artillery. There's a table at the end of the directions that shows the efficiency. So, if you are putting a tank battalion on an AP, count on needing a lot more load capacity than appears on the LCU screen.

However, more to the point: I don't rely on the LCU screen information. When I'm loading a large unit, I create a TF of one AP. I then instruct it to load only troops. At that point, a screen (forget what it's called) appears showing the units eligible to be loaded. I believe the load factor numbers are on this screen are accurate - unlike those in the LCU screen. I jot down the load points needed to load each unit I'm interested in loading and exit the load screen. I then add more ships to the existing TF, load the designated unit, and create other AP TFs according to the load factors I jotted down. Hasn't failed me yet, and I've cut things really close, e.g., five ship TF all loaded at 98%.

Everyone else is right about planning an invasion. As the Allies, I keep my 6k APs hauling from the West Coast to the front, and use the 2k and 4k APs for invasions (until I get the miscellaneous assault "barges" and LSTs) because they unload faster and, as irrelevant says, you get more boots on the line quicker. As for whether I load supplies onto the APs or not, that depends on the situation. If it is a real dangerous operation where I'm expecting heavy air opposition, can't cover the landings well, and am assaulting a base with a tiny port number, I will not load supply. I kick the troops off the APs and get the more valuable APs out of the AO. I'll let the less valuable AKs (the smaller ones for the same reason as APs) loiter at the assault beaches trying to unload supplies. If they get zapped, it's not as great a loss. But if I'm not expecting dangerous air opposition, I'll put supply on the APs as well.

If you bring supplies on an AK, your units will have supplies immediately. I just don't like to wait. And anyway, one is not always able to wait....

I've not experienced this. Perhaps I'm was doing it wrong. As it is, I never have supplies in the unit on the initial landing day. With supplies on the 1500 AP's, I have them the next day without fail (which is the usually the first time one can attack anyway). With an AK, I've had to wait several days for enough supplies to unload.

Please explain how you do it with an AK as I'm curious now.

Oh, and BTW, I did forget to mention escort ships in the Amphib TF. You correctly note minesweepers. I always have several minesweepers in my amphib TF. The slow 10-speed ones work great because those small AP's are slow anyway. Several PC's are also always present, along with a high-experience DD or APD. I don't worry about a CL usually (although you are correct that they absorb a lot of CD). Kuching is the only CD-heavy place I invade without a CA or two in the TF. CL's are reserved for surface combat torpedo TF.

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Don't be stingy with APs. When I am loading up for an amphib op, I'm not thinking "how few APs can I get away with using", rather it is "how fast can I get these LCUs completely unloaded." How long it takes the unit to fully unload depends on how many load points are on each AP. If your 10,000 point LCU is loaded onto 4 APs (2500 points/AP), it is going to take you a few days to get all your boots on the ground. OTOH, if you put that same LCU on 25 APs (400 points/AP), you can unload everyone before the first land combat phase. Judicious use of this concept can mean the difference between success and failure in opposed landings (especially on atolls where you will have to make that nasty automatic shock attack on day 1).

If unloading speed is not an issue, I'll pick enough APs to carry 2X or so what the LCU info screen tells me that unit requires. Never use fewer than 2 APs to carry any LCU (prevents total loss in case it gets sunk). Never try to load more than one LCU at a time in any TF. If you have multiple LCUs to load, form a separate TF for each. Once loading has begun, you can dump all the TFs together into one. Don't include APs that have spent op points that turn; results are unpredictable. If this means you don't have enough APs, wait a turn.

Use "load troops only" for your APs, load your supplies onto AKs, then include one or more loaded AKs with the first wave. This has several advantages: supplies unload along with the guys instead of after, and AKs carry supplies more efficiently than APs do. This efficiency means that not only can bring more supplies per load point, but they load and unload faster, point per point. This means faster turnaround loading and unloading, as does the fact that you no longer have to wait for the APs to load/unload supply after the LCUs.

Roger,

The advice in bold above is critical. The game engine has trouble trying to load more than one land unit on a TF. One unit per TF, wait until the TF's are all done loading, then combine them. Also, make sure the AP's/AK's/whatever in the TF have 0 Ops points expended when you give the load order.

The game engine has trouble trying to load more than one land unit on a TF.

It does not have trouble. It specifically spreads the units loaded out so they can be unloaded fast. Most people do not include anywhere near enough ships for this to happen hence they think something is wrong because not all of the units loaded. It is just the game's way of telling you that it is not in the sardine business. If you want to sardine the guys into the ships, you need to control the packing yourself by giving specific amounts of space to specific units to tell the game how tight to pack them [;)]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The game engine has trouble trying to load more than one land unit on a TF.

It does not have trouble. It specifically spreads the units loaded out so they can be unloaded fast. Most people do not include anywhere near enough ships for this to happen hence they think something is wrong because not all of the units loaded. It is just the game's way of telling you that it is not in the sardine business. If you want to sardine the guys into the ships, you need to control the packing yourself by giving specific amounts of space to specific units to tell the game how tight to pack them [;)]

I beg to differ. The last time I tried to load more than one unit in a TF I had a HUGE amount of extra space. The actual load was like this (numbers are representative, it was two+ months ago). I needed something like 70,000 or 80,000 space, I had maybe 110,000-120,000.

TF = 15 AK's (using a round number for illustration)
LCU A (large)
LCU B (very small)

Fragment of LCU A on 1 ship.
A fragment of LCU B on each of 14 ships. Each of these slices was positively tiny.

Most of LCU A was left behind.

A bunch of other people have posted similar problems, so I know it's not me. After I first had the problem I adopted a very methodical approach to make sure I wasn't messing up Ops points or something else. The only thing that works consistently is 1 land unit per TF during loading. I've had the same problem whether AK's or AP's, no difference.

I would love to be able to load multiple at a time instead of micromanaging it. If it worked that way, I would use it.

I've had the problem, witpqs, but I have found that too many ships seems to be as much an issue as too few. Unit size may also be a factor, though I rarely load divisions and smaller units in the same TF.

I needed something like 70,000 or 80,000 space, I had maybe 110,000-120,000.

Sorry, but that is exactly what I just said. You are *not* providing anywhere near the space required for combat unloading, you are being Mr.Sardine. Couple that with the fact that AK's are not designed for the purpose of landing infantry on a beach during an invasion and you soon begin to understand why so many people run into problems. I almost think we need to have extra casualties inflicted on people who load ships to the point where troops have to come off single file into a bunch of prepared defences. You're NOT going to be very happy with the next patch that adds losses to cargo/troops when the ship is damaged in the next patch when playing Mr.Sardine. You will take massive losses this way.

Properly loaded ships will unload in 1 or 2 rounds of beach time and be gone. If you want to cram them in and be unloading for days, thats entirely up to you ... your ships will pay the price when the air force drops by for a visit.

Do not confuse cargo hauling with landings, the default is to load loose for landings. If you want to pack tight, you need to pack for yourself.

well that certainly generated a load of excellent advice.... at present I've had a glass or two of the red (classic British understatment), so I'll digest it tomorrow,

Thanks to all who contributed

Roger

[&o]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I needed something like 70,000 or 80,000 space, I had maybe 110,000-120,000.

Sorry, but that is exactly what I just said. You are *not* providing anywhere near the space required for combat unloading, you are being Mr.Sardine. Couple that with the fact that AK's are not designed for the purpose of landing infantry on a beach during an invasion and you soon begin to understand why so many people run into problems. I almost think we need to have extra casualties inflicted on people who load ships to the point where troops have to come off single file into a bunch of prepared defences. You're NOT going to be very happy with the next patch that adds losses to cargo/troops when the ship is damaged in the next patch when playing Mr.Sardine. You will take massive losses this way.

Properly loaded ships will unload in 1 or 2 rounds of beach time and be gone. If you want to cram them in and be unloading for days, thats entirely up to you ... your ships will pay the price when the air force drops by for a visit.

Do not confuse cargo hauling with landings, the default is to load loose for landings. If you want to pack tight, you need to pack for yourself.

Ease up on them hammers, friend.

I was transferring units from one base to another. I do not use AK's for combat assaults (hey, what do you take me for? [;)]).

Regarding the sardine comment, how about helping us out with just what % extra space is required? I had at least 50% extra space. Are you telling me that's being stingy? [&:][&:][&:] Please advise! [:'(]

Oh yeah, one other thing. I will like the next patch![&o]

Please explain how you do it with an AK as I'm curious now.

Well, there's no mystery, just stick an AK or two full of supplies in the same TF with the first wave APs. While the APs are unloading your boys, the AKs are unloading supplies which are sucked up by your LCUs. Try this, and then at the end of DDay check out your LCU info screens; all of your LCUs will have some supply. They might be in the orange or so, but they won't be for long.

I beg to differ. The last time I tried to load more than one unit in a TF I had a HUGE amount of extra space. The actual load was like this (numbers are representative, it was two+ months ago). I needed something like 70,000 or 80,000 space, I had maybe 110,000-120,000.

TF = 15 AK's (using a round number for illustration)
LCU A (large)
LCU B (very small)

Fragment of LCU A on 1 ship.
A fragment of LCU B on each of 14 ships. Each of these slices was positively tiny.

Most of LCU A was left behind.

This one's simple too. Load one unit per TF only, and don't use AKs to transport LCUs (except for armor). Don't try to fight against the game, save that for your opponent[;)]

If you are doing a base transfer, sardine 'em ... beach landing aim for 40% or less full, but that varies by ship size.

Obviously 40% of a AP 4500 is not 40% of a AP 1500 [;)]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Don't try to fight against the game, save that for your opponent.

Just as soon as the poor UI and deceptive documentation stops taking swings at me.

Well, there's no mystery, just stick an AK or two full of supplies in the same TF with the first wave APs.

Well I'll certainly try this.

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

This one's simple too. Load one unit per TF only, and don't use AKs to transport LCUs (except for armor). Don't try to fight against the game, save that for your opponent[;)]

There's an exception for every rule of course -- on Turn 1 (where all APs should be preparing for invasions) the Japanese can benefit from loading LCUs on AKs for transit to backwater Chinese ports needing additional partisan poopers...