Matrix Games Forums

Just how did the Momi Class APD conversions end up as the most effective
ASW platforms in the Pacific at the start of the game? I'm not even sure
these 20-year old relics had hydrophones, let alone ASDIC. Veteran Brit
Destroyers fresh from 2 years in the "Battle of the Atlantic" get an ASW
rating of "8"..., which seemed appropriate compared with all the other ASW
ratings I'd seen until I happened across these Japanese "super ships" with
their rating of "10". Was this supposed to be 1.0? Does anybody have an
explanation for this anomoly?

It sounds like we need PRY on this one.

Isn't the ASW rating nothing more than the number of DC racks the ship has?

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Isn't the ASW rating nothing more than the number of DC racks the ship has?

Yes. It is assumed that all ASW ships have ASDIC.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Isn't the ASW rating nothing more than the number of DC racks the ship has?

Yes. It is assumed that all ASW ships have ASDIC.

That's a pretty big assumption for the Japanese Navy. Hydrophones were advanced
technology for a lot of their ships, and many DD's had no ASW at all. But I appre-
ciate the info on the DC racks. ARE YOU FELLOWS CERTAIN THIS IS CORRECT?
I've noticed a pretty fair correlation between my ASW successes and those numbers.

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Isn't the ASW rating nothing more than the number of DC racks the ship has?

Yes, the ASW rating is simply the number of DC racks on the ship. Unfortunately the way ASW is modeled the number of racks is the most important factor in killing subs... Kinda like rate of fire for MGs - higher rate of fire, more kills..

Xargun

Actually, it's worse. When you see DCs dropping, these are actually individual DCs...patterns were not initially modelled. The present ammo reflects "patterns" because this was ridiculous, given the "smart bomb" accuracy.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Actually, it's worse. When you see DCs dropping, these are actually individual DCs...patterns were not initially modelled. The present ammo reflects "patterns" because this was ridiculous, given the "smart bomb" accuracy.

Well, if there is ANY game correlation between the ASW number and effectiveness
as an ASW platform, then the Momi-Class APD's need some major re-calculation.
I will guarantee that the Imperial Japanese Navy during WWII NEVER had a ship
afloat that was 25% BETTER at sub hunting than the British veterans of the
Battle of the Atlantic. The values for these ships are an error that needs correcting

Hi, It is ASW rating X crew X Nationality with the Japanese being around 25 percent of the Allies. So assuming a 50 crew

Japanese Momi 10 ASW x .50 x.25=1.25
British 8 ASWx.50X1=4

The Allied ship is much better in actually sinking submarines. Of course with any ship no matter what Navy crew ratings below 50 pretty much negate the ASW rating and Nationally.

Strangely. In PBEM I sink more enemy submarines no matter what side I am playing. (About 4 times as many)


All things considered I ask, Compare the number of Allied submarines sunk by Japanese ASW ships with the number of Japanese subs sunk by Allied ASW ships.
Now multipy the number by the ratio of Japanese ASW assets compared to Allied ASW assets.
Consider the Japanese did not begin ASW operations other then inside surface TF before Nov 1943.

The Japanese using 10 percent of the effort sank 25 percent as much as the Allies.
Japanese ASW vessels sank several of the most famous USN submarines.

As Russ says, there is an Allied/Japan descriminating modifier for ASW.

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, It is ASW rating X crew X Nationality with the Japanese being around 25 percent of the Allies. So assuming a 50 crew

Japanese Momi 10 ASW x .50 x.25=1.25
British 8 ASWx.50X1=4

The Allied ship is much better in actually sinking submarines. Of course with any ship no matter what Navy crew ratings below 50 pretty much negate the ASW rating and Nationally.

Strangely. In PBEM I sink more enemy submarines no matter what side I am playing. (About 4 times as many)


All things considered I ask, Compare the number of Allied submarines sunk by Japanese ASW ships with the number of Japanese subs sunk by Allied ASW ships.
Now multipy the number by the ratio of Japanese ASW assets compared to Allied ASW assets.
Consider the Japanese did not begin ASW operations other then inside surface TF before Nov 1943.

The Japanese using 10 percent of the effort sank 25 percent as much as the Allies.
Japanese ASW vessels sank several of the most famous USN submarines.

OK.., Mogomi. I'll accept this explanation that this piece of foolishness is not of critical
importance and let it go. But it's still a goofy way to determine a base ASW value. I
mean, had the Japanese chosen to put 40 Deapth Charge launchers on the Kitikami
instead of 40 torpedo tubes, would it have become a great ASW platform? Not hardly.
It's another poor design choice that we are stuck with. At least it doesn't appear serious.

Hi, I fail to see how else it can be modeled. You place the actual weapons on the ships and then modify performance. They had a lot of DC but still in the game perform lower then Allied ASW platforms with fewer DC.

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I fail to see how else it can be modeled. You place the actual weapons on the ships and then modify performance. They had a lot of DC but still in the game perform lower then Allied ASW platforms with fewer DC.

Well,

The ASW 'value' could account for maneuverability, sonar suite, ASW skill, etc. But, that's for another game/simulation at another time. The current system gets the job done.

other than keeping sub commanders' heads down, do ASW aircraft influence surface ASW attacks? i'd be willing to accept that having a couple of PBY squadrons on ASW duty around Pearl Harbor would increase surface ASW effectiveness....

Hi, Submarins that are spotted by their making an attack, or by aircraft that remain in the hex and then are searched for by ASW TF have a greater chance of being attacked. (hit rate still remains the same but number of ASW ships that locate submarine will increase)
That is why you won't find one of my submarines within 10 hexes of enemy base 30 days into war. (And why my submarines move at least 6 hexes after they attack or have been spotted)

So far in my PBEM games, I've had pretty low losses to ASW forces. I use subs very aggressively, so I am going to take losses, but like Mogami, I move spotted subs immediately. Some players don't like that micro-management. Those players will lose more subs than me always.

As for ASW platforms, the Japanese did develop several successful platforms, but not really until later in the war. Of course line DDs were dangerous (Fubukis and later). The Chidori class and the several Kaiboken classes (spelling?) were pretty good at their jobs. US Sub commanders avoided the Chidori's like the plague because they had good sonar and trained ASW crews. The Kaibokens were slow, but carried a TON of DCs - upwards of 400 in some cases. One of these ships sank the Harder, under Sam Dealey - MOH winner, off Palau, I believe. And finally, the Japanese certainly had at least basic passive sonars in all their destroyers. That technology was available as early as WW1. The IJN didn't develop really good active sonar until later in the war, and it was never on the level of the Allies - but saying they didn't have good sonar or ASW platforms is incorrect. The problems were more with tactics than equipment...

i guess i'm putting myself at a disadvantage...i usually don't run the combat animations to save time, so i miss seeing the reports that one of my subs has been spotted...there's no way to tell unless i run the combat animations, right?

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

i guess i'm putting myself at a disadvantage...i usually don't run the combat animations to save time, so i miss seeing the reports that one of my subs has been spotted...there's no way to tell unless i run the combat animations, right?

It should be in your OPS report.

true, but the ops report does not generate unless i run the turn as allies (slot 001), if i'm not mistaken...could be wrong...i have just been loading the scenario file without loading the 001 slot file first as allies

What role does the submarine crew experience and sub commander ratings have in avoiding ASW hits?