Matrix Games Forums

Hi,

A couple of people on this forum - myself included - have indicated
that at some point or other they either entertained the notion of
making a computer wargame or even actually started a project. These all
start of great and then get stuck in the mud somewhere. Why ?

Well, I can't speak for the others, but for me at some point it stops
being fun and it becomes work. Some will say that it's a character flaw
- not finishing stuff you start and all that - but I don't think that's
the case. I've got over a dozen finished private projects up at my
website to attest to that.

It's not technical difficulties either, no wall I've run into, it's
even not the sheer size of the project which was quite modest compared
to the stuff I do for a living. And even smaller than some projects I
did finish.

No, what I've found out - rather recently I'm ashamed to say - is that
designing a computer wargame is teamwork. Not only does it require
people with different talents (graphics, game design, programming,
business, ...) but it also requires a constant feedback/bouncing back
of ideas and for this your best bet to finish the project is a small
team whose members mutually support each other both mentally and
technically.

So what about the Lone Programmer paradigm - the Norm Koger, Gary
Grigsby, John Tiller, Hubert Cater type of guy. Well, the paradigm is
wrong. Just take a look at the credits list for any game of the guys
mentioned above - it's long - unexpectedly long sometimes. Wargames -
even the ones we think were solo-projects - that made it to market were
*all* made by teams.

Ok - now all this begs the question : how to get yourself a team ?

You might try the "help wanted" forum at http://www.gamedev.net - it's
quiet full and lively and ideal if you want to make a FPS, RPG or any
other of the more popular gametypes but for a wargame designer it's
pretty much useless. But the format is right : it's a market with
musicians offering to make original scores, some graphically challenged
programmer asking for a low-polycount 3D model of a car, teams forming,
feedback on "the teams that made it", etc. Great stuff.

So this leaves the final question unanswered : why don't any of the
popular wargame forums out there have a forum dedicated to "wargame
design / help wanted" ? Must be something I missed, but what is it ?
Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

The best way to meet a team is work in the games industry and meet them there, but that's not always practical. That's how we started, 1 programmer, 1 artists and 1 designer.... well that's all we are now still

www.igda.org has a good forum for people getting together and starting up teams, though you might find it hard to meet someone into wargames.
If you are a programmer its much easier to start a team as you can get things started without anyone else, even if it looks rubbish initially. For others its harder to get things going.

Most of all it does take a lot of time and determination!

I guess I could be interested.

But I would need some general information
to judge where I could be usefull.

Thanks,

I'm not actively seeking a team right now - got to many things going on right now - just a general question / inquiry + wondering why with all the wargame forums out there there's not one on actual wargame development.

<hint>
For a wargame publisher it might be a good idea to have a forum like that
</hint>

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

Most people making a game as a one man project end up with lots of help as long as they have a forum for the project. Start your own forum, help will come out of the woodwork.

E

As I'm one of those 'lone programmers' I thought I'd chime in on this. From a programming point of view Maximum-Football (www.maximum-football.com being published by matrix) was a 100% solo project. From an artwork point of view it's probably 80% solo and from a 3D modelling and animation point of view, it's again 100%. Since I started this project in 1999;

- I have moved from Vancouver to Victoria.
- Moved back to Vancouver.
- Gone through a divorce (more than likely related to this project?)
- Lost a dear friend (my dog Sam)
- Found a new love (getting married in September)
- Sold my house.
- Bought a new house.
- Killed a car.
- Bought a new truck.
- Changed jobs three times.

What kept me working on this project (HUGE, MONSTER Project)? I'm one of those people that doesn't like to leave things unfinished. I hear a lot of people start projects, be them game building projects, writing that novel, or just painting their living room. My guestimate is that 98% of these people never finish any of those...well maybe the living room painting because the wife would be all over them... When I start a project I actually feel guilty if I'm not working on it.

I'm also a control freak. I know what I want and how things should be done. It is probably my military training but I tend to be the person that takes control of teams and situations. When I worked at Microsoft (contract job) I was hired as a grunt coder. Within 8 weeks I was a team lead.

I am also tend to take the projects far too close to my heart.. so when people start bashing them I tend to get upset... a bad thing for game developer because you're never going to please everyone all the time...

A think lot of people that deal in solo projects (Sid Meier's Civilization comes to mind) are this sort of person.

As for lone programmers with teams.. well even a lone programmer has beta users. Many people set out to do these things to prove they can do it themselves. Others have become lone programmers by default. I tend to shy away from offers of help because I have found it's impossible to rely on those offers. Case in point I hired (meaning I was paying him) a 3d modeller to build my player models back in 1999. He was given 3 weeks to build a model. 6 weeks later I get a half finished model and an email saying he was going back to school and would not finish the project. His model was unusable and I wound up doing it myself (and it turned out pretty good I think). I find this a lot. So I find I do it myself to make sure it's done the way I need it and done when I need it.

but for me at some point it stops
being fun and it becomes work.

True. But so does playing a lot of games. Wargames and MMPORG's both come to mind here, each for different reasons.

Some will say that it's a character flaw
- not finishing stuff you start and all that - but I don't think that's
the case. I've got over a dozen finished private projects up at my
website to attest to that.

I think it would come down to the reason why you didn't finish. There are plenty of plausible ones. Even larger developers cancel their games/projects. WISH (A MMPORG) just got canceled. It was fairly far along. ALL 88 of its server blades are now up for sale on ebay for something like a 120K starting bid.

No, what I've found out - rather recently I'm ashamed to say - is that
designing a computer wargame is teamwork. Not only does it require
people with different talents (graphics, game design, programming,
business, ...) but it also requires a constant feedback/bouncing back
of ideas and for this your best bet to finish the project is a small
team whose members mutually support each other both mentally and
technically.

I think it helps to start your own forums.

You might try the "help wanted" forum at http://www.gamedev.net - it's
quiet full and lively and ideal if you want to make a FPS, RPG or any
other of the more popular gametypes but for a wargame designer it's
pretty much useless.

GameDev.Net is great for asking the occasional technical question but I think its a terrible place to find help. 99 out of 100 people there have unrealistic expectations for their projects/games (and no real plan). This is apparant by how many people are working on MMPORG's and haven't a clue how much server power/bandwidth they would need to actually make them work in the end. That's not to say THOSE teams don't have value. But the value is simply in gaining experience and not in finishing anything. GameDev.Net projects are NOT a good measure for how many "indie" projects get completed. Most of its members are just kids with dreams of getting into the game industry. The projects aren't meant to ever be finished there (Even though the occasional one is).

So this leaves the final question unanswered : why don't any of the
popular wargame forums out there have a forum dedicated to "wargame
design / help wanted" ? Must be something I missed, but what is it ?

Because the more typical resources needed (Artists, Musicians, etc.) don't tend to like wargames on average anyway (Percentage Wise). That would leave just the designer's & programmer types of which many computer wargame designer's have need for only one of those to begin with (As in some of the examples posted in this thread). So it likely would turn more into a discussion of game development than it would any sort of recruitment forum. Though I could certainly be wrong.

I am always looking for help myself. But as has already been said, its not that its hard to find help, or even necessarily GOOD help, its that its hard to find help that you can rely on (even when paid). You can always count on yourself, and if you can't, as you have mentioned might be a problem in your case, then your best not to ever even start in the first place. A solution to almost every problem a person encounters, can be found within themselves.

Its a good point.

Im sure many here have ideas on games that they know will sell and may even sell very well indeed. The games market has become like hollywood. Pidgeon holed and boring. They all keep to the same formulas. Even going the way of "Part 1" and "part 2". All inovation has gone. Very sad indeed. Yes you get the odd gem. You get small companies making games that arent the norm. But its not enough.

I mentioned in another thread about a conversion of Car Wars. Or as near as dammit. Im sure it would appeal to many on this forum. If done right it would sell well. Veldor has got three games that have been crying out for making. Luckly for us he has got of his backside and actually gone and done something to get these games developed and out for us to enjoy.

IF I had programming knowledge I too would try and get my game idea done. However I dont and prob never will have.

Im sure many here have ideas on games that they know will sell and may even sell very well indeed

Wodin I,m curious do you think that an increase in interest in wargames(sales) would inspire those who are capable? Or is it their spirit of creativity or their love for the type of game(wargame). Which moves one to try and improve game methods,systems, ect. Maybe this is a question for all those who are active in the making of wargames.

If you're doing it as a hobby/part time it can be the love of the games. If you're doing it for a living you still care a lot about the games but you have to be commecial or you dont eat! Being commercial forces you to think about what people are really looking for, rather than what makes you happy, which can make the games even better. We've found that the way it looks is the single most important thing. Sad but true. From now on we wont be releasing any games that dont look very cool. The gameplay will be just as good as before but it has to have a glossy finish to get good reviews and sell well.

We've found that the way it looks is the single most important thing. Sad but true. From now on we wont be releasing any games that dont look very cool. The gameplay will be just as good as before but it has to have a glossy finish to get good reviews and sell well.

As we say in Germany "Das Auge ist mit". Or inour case "Das Auge kämpft mit" [;)]

This is exactly the way it is. Great gamplay is for most of the part enough for the died hard gamers among us, but that combined with eyecandy (it doesn´t have to be on HL2 standard [;)]) generates more fuzz and extra sales even brings in fresh blood to wargames. I know that now some people will come and tell me how much BS that is and that ressources should focus on AI and gameplay, but I tell you it´s not BS and Artists do not code [;)]

Love and creativity should be the driving force BUT sales need to come into it so that the programme can give up his fulltime job to concentrate on game develoment.

So if I understand correctlyin todays market;

1. The Administrator or CEO (who may have been a programmer,designer,artist) is occupied with the sales,cost of development,success of the company. He/She could be a player or was a player of wargames?
Their creativity is expressed through the bigger picture now?

2. The play designer(thinker) trys to develop something that is appealing to the eye. Does not have to create as much? (I've read more than once in these forums the wargame themes have all been put to games).

3. The artist is allowed to use his/her talent and creativity and is sought out(paid well) for what they enjoy doing? Seems the artist the happiest in todays market.

4. The programmer just wants to earn a living programming wargames or whatever is available? Has no fun!

Is this a poor understanding of what I read?

I guess, i was was just trying to understand( Iwas thinking through my pen on the above post) the inner workings of the strategy wargaming companys today. It was more of a question looking for a response from someone who has a grasp.

Yes, I know its only curiosity on my part but it interest me to understand the where and how of the strategy wargame future market. If you have any insghts you wish to share i would appreciate it.

In bigger teams there are defined roles, but in small teams you tend to find every one is unique, so its hard to give an idea of the average single programmer team We can only tell you what our team looks like!

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

We've found that the way it looks is the single most important thing. Sad but true... it has to have a glossy finish to get good reviews and sell well.

Blimey, that's a depressing statement coming from a developer, Iain! As a naive, idealistic game reviewer I've always felt that game sales had more to do with (in order of significance)

1. Marketing spend/media exposure (most noticeable in console charts, but PC gaming badly afflicted too)
2. Appeal (Hard to pin-down but theme/genre/graphics/complexity are obviously important. If shifting units is your primary objective probably best not to spend five years crafting a painstakingly accurate 2D turn-based Battle of Naseby wargame)
3. Critical reception
4. Quality

and good reviews were dependent on (in order of significance)

1. Game quality (These days - in the main mags and sites - I think it's pretty rare to see titles grossly misjudged or trashed purely on the basis of visuals)
2. Luck (reviewers personal preferences)
3. Marketing spend/media exposure ('bad'/inexperienced reviewers subconciously influenced by hype)

My thanks for your replies. It was good to see from a reviewers perspective as well.

My question to you Muletears would then be. How do do see the health of the wargame market today? Specifically, strategy wargames.


My question to Iain McNeil would be: Is there any enjoyment (creativity) left in what your doing? Or, has the Market pressure buried some of your idealism.
There are so many directions wargaming has taken (Rpg, ect.), since this type of game concept was realized in the first boardgames.

The views of this old wargamer, who has enjoyed so much the creativity of all those involved in bringing to reality this consuming hobby. I hope this kind of diversion sees many more years of development.