Matrix Games Forums

ok, so people like battleships, and made some arguements for them, which make some sense.

Here, however, I will provide alternatives to adding battleships, as well as thing that defeat battleships.

1. Arsenal ship

Basically, it's freighter converted for military use, carrying around a few hundreds of torpedos on internal launch bays in such a way that they can all be launched at once. The launch racks will be covered by a box made from stealth material, which is to be ejected during launch.

The arsenal ship will have the standard equipment of a freighter cheap to produce. It will have minimal or no crew because high combat losses will be expected. It will have two quantum engines so that it can jump in, fire, and jump out before the enemy's torpedoes have time to reach it.

The stealth rating will be very good for this ship, because it will normally operate with no shields, and no energy weapons, and engines powered down. It will use missile weapons to snipe enemies, and use missiles for point defense.

advantages :
very cheap to produce
massive firepower
quick jump in and out
Disadvantages:
no shields
bad sensors

2. Sensor drone fighter

To make up for the arsenal ships' lack of sensor, and in part as an effort to allow the arsenal ship to fire beyond its own as well as its targets' sensor range, drones will be deployed for recon and light anti-fighter operations.

this ship will be like a normal fighter, except unmanned, because its high-powered sensors will make it a prime target for anti-radar weapons.

advantages:
cheap to produce
disadvantages:
too obvious a target
light weapons

3. control ship

It receives the telemetry from sensor drones, and sends them to the arsenal ship.
This ship will stay at the very back of an engagement, and be heavily shielded and armored, but will have only point-defense missile weapons to take out far penetrating fighter-sized targets, especially sensor drones.
Its doctrine is to retreat when confronted by capital ships to prevent losses.

Advantages:
Relatively cheap

Disadvantages:
Not that cheap
No weapons

4. Close combat heavy drone ship
Now you got artillery, but they need to be protected when enemies do come upclose.
So, here, A heavily shielded ship armed with only heavy energy weapons and point defense lasers will be the last ditch defense if the battleship slammed through a wall of 400+ missiles.

Basically, this ship is a heavy unmanned frigate, unmanned because combat losses will be near 100%. The ship will run on fuels instead of reator mass, because fuel is cheap. It normally flies with everything powered down, but will power-up when threat arises. Once powered up, the fuel will last around 20 minutes, in which time the ship will try to attack the weak spots of the enemy battleship, like the cracks in its shield or its fighter bays ect ect

the running on fuel instead of reactor will allow this ship to be much smaller, and thus harder to detect and hit

Advantages:
still fairly cheap to build
same firepower as destroyer but smaller
same shield as a destroyer

Disadvantages
not that cheap
only last for 20 minutes

5. Quantum warhead torpedo
This is a special large torpedo that will be armed with nothing but a quantum drive, its purpose is to wedge itself into the hull of an enemy ship and use the quantum warhead to jump it off to some undesirable location, such as a planetary sector, or the interior of a star.

It will have shields and super engines to ensure survivability, again, it runs on fuel, to make it smaller.

Advantages:
quantum rift will pierce any heavy armor and penetrate any heavy shielding
disadvantages:
somewhat expensive for just a torpedo, but it will kill a battleship in one shot or two


Ok so, as you can see, my stuffs will be relatively cheap, so i'd expect that for every one battleship that I don't build, I will have around this:

4 arsenal ships
20 sensor drones
1 control ship
6 close combat ship
4 quantum torpedoes

combined with the mobility and the ability to split up, i'd consider these a much better option to add than a single battleship

well, if you read all that, what i want to do here is to prove the inefficnecy of battleships, and not to really add those weapons, so consider this a "no battleships!" petition

1. Arsenal ship

Well, if it has the qualities of a freighter it will be slow and if you played SS you will notice that freighters are very poorly armoured.
You will have noticed that a very bright flash is produced by any ship entering a sector by a quantum jump.
Obviously, ship detection in SS is not subject to energy emissions only. There are all sorts of sensors from telescope watch outs to quatum flash detectors, etc.
So your arsenal ship will be spotted long before it can get within 100 Km, wich is the actual maximum range for the biggest ass anti-capital ship missiles it would carry.
Furthermore, any BB battlegroup will have it's own escort carrier, continuously maintaining a small screen of fighters around it, on a 24/7 basis - and the Capital ships itselves may contain their own fighter complement.
Unless your arsenal ship is properly escorted or unless it is lucky enough to jump to the enmey sector and arrive very near the enmy Battlegroup (it happens on SS from time to time), I doubt that it would work.
Obviously, it would probably work for a couple of times, untill the enemy discovered and got used to the idea that "it wasn't jus a freighter".
Nevertheless it is probable that the enemy would already anticipate such a mve and create a "buffer zone" of at least 150 Km around the Battleship and it's battlegroup.

2. Sensor drone fighter

We already have drones and probes, even though they are unarmed. Obviously as space is one of the most hostile environments to life, all space combat should be unmanned as space battles (even in SS) can be very bloody.
Yet, human pilots in general can easily beat drones and even the little F-32 Falcon could at least kill a few with his ATA missiles, before they even got close.
As off now SS technology doesn't allow quantum small craft. The smallest ship equipped with a quantum drive is a corvette.
I'm not against having quantum drives for fighters and even drones like in the SW universe - it would open more deadly possibilities.
Yet if we add this and that, the list becomes quickly "endless" and adding 1 class of ships (BB) is certainly easire than developing newer ones, specially when BBs can be bigger versions of what already exist.
But as you said, your drones would have light weapons and if they were to carry countermeasures (like SS's fighters) they'd become more targetable. If we add quantum technology to them (as we have it now on current SS) they would become very big drones, easily knocked out by fighters or by a torpedo.

3. control ship

The idea is good but as with any system wich is dependent of other systems, it would suffice to take out the drones that are liable to track the BB to neutralize your firing system. The advantage of Capital ships is that they integrate all that is necessary to find calculate firing solutions. So you have to knock the Capital ship out to stop it.
So it is not just a matter of a BB "slamming" through 400 missiles. It is a matter of your drones and arsenal ship getting whitin 100 Km of the BB so they can open fire on it.
I have much reserves on that for the reasons I have advanced above.
Once the drones were out, the only choice for your arsenal and control ships is to jump out of there, not to mention that any admiral willl keep his ships moving and even if they must remain stationary (like ina a blockade), there will surely be a fighter screening, that will at least give Early Warning, not to mention that a single fighter can well cripple any cargo).

4. Close combat heavy drone ship

Same deal - it would be spotted long before it could do any damage for the BB and it's battlegroup. Probably pinned down by fighters from the escort carrier or from the Capital ships themselves.

5. Quantum warhead torpedo

That would be great! Yet it would have to be huge, perhaps even bigger than the Athena or Nike missiles (wich are currently the biggest ones in the game). Again, SS fighters can target and engage any anti-capital ship torpedo or bigger projectile, so the escort would get them or the BB's point defense will.

I am used to large fleet engagements (like 40 capitals on a single mission) and even when you have like 4 ships firing at one, few missiles or none will hit at all, untill combat gets to very close quarters, where the targets PDF is saturated tracking and firing at the nearby enemy Capital ships, to busy to engage and destroy incoming missiles.

Ok so, as you can see, my stuffs will be relatively cheap, so i'd expect that for every one battleship that I don't build, I will have around this:

4 arsenal ships
20 sensor drones
1 control ship
6 close combat ship
4 quantum torpedoes

Your setup is looking at at least 10 capital ships if not 11 (the 1th would be a sort of carrier for your 20 big drones).
Knowing that a typical starshatter battlegroup would be composed of a BB, a CC/CLA, escort CV with a full wing of fighters (around 72 on the very least, not to mention eventual fighters carried by the Capitals themselves...), 2 DD and 2 FFs - totaling 9 ships.
Now, that is a small fleet vs a small fleet type engagement.
As you have stated, you would assault an enemy BB and it's battlegroup. This enemy BB would already be deployed and therefore on alert status, with fighters and capitals patrolling around the buffer zone.
Your "arsenal" fleet would have to jump in or farcast (one ship at the time if farcasted).
If it were farcasted, your ships would be dead, as you can only send 1 ship at the time - and farcasters are mined or controlled by the present fleet.
In the case the "arsenal" fleet would jump into the enemy controlled sector, several things may happen :

1. the ships won't jump all at the same time;

2. they won't arrive all at the same location;

3. they would have to be deployed so that they "interact" as they are supposed too, in order that they become the perfect firing solution they are.

Even if by some means they can "firelink" their quantum jump computers, so all quantum drives fire simultaneously, there is still the question of where they will arrive in the sector.
All that is very random.
Remember that in SS, even if you had a 2nd Quantum drive, recharged and standing by to jump out, your SS nav computer needs time - and it will need lots more if you are surrounded by enemy ships, even if only 3 of them.
It once took me 217 seconds too jump out of a hot engagement (I was in a courageous class cruiser, alone against 1 Tiger class frigate and 2 broadsword class DDs), and the second I jumped into their sector, in the middle of them, they were already firing at me.
How's that for situational awareness?
Now imagine beeing fire upon on all sides, priority beeing put on setting the shields up, setting the weapons for that particular combat (like auto, manual or def for some of the weapons) and selecting a quantum destination (if you had that second quantum drive and if the enemy didn't damage it while you were rigging your ship for the situation).

I think that in the current SS universe, with fleets organised as they are (a carrier battlegroup, escorted by a cruiser and destroyer battlegroups, as you will see in the campaigns), would at least get one of your system's vital pieces, thus rendering it inoperational, the only thing remaining would be taking out the ships apart, one by one, with combined fighter/capital ship actions.
Offcourse it could always work against a staioned fleet on reserve status, providing that your "arsenal" fleet could get unoticed to such a deep and core system, very far from the frontline.

To conclude, I am not against your idea and would gladly put it to test.
Besides, the addition of new classes of ships is always positive.
One the other hand, people are ranting because I wanted to add a single class of ship, based on bigger versions of what already exist, imagine what the would say if you want them to add 5 more classes and edit the game's code so that your "arsenal" ship system can only fire if there is :
1.control ship;
1. drone;
1. arsenal ship.

... all this within the proper ranges.
Note that current max range sensor is 150 Km for game purposes.
Besides manned craft are funnier to play in a game, and that's what SS is - a game.

=S=

Interesting idea you have there goduranus, but a group of dedicated DDGs, perhaps converted Specters with 4 Torp launchers could equally overloading PD systems, with better chances of surviving to point blank range without a complex guiding system (the more complex the system, the easier it is to pull the plug somewhere).
But they would still be vulnerable to a BB ripping them apart at longer ranges with some 2 plus Grasers mounted on each turret pointed at the enemy.
We should probably add some dedcated DDGs and CGs to our list of TBDs nevertheless.

This is probably a mistake jumping in to this thread, but here goes.

Diab,

A couple of errors to your statements. Ranges on missiles and sensors are only limited to whatever you make them. It is entirely possible to make a "commerce raider" freighter (which is what you are describing here). I have made a "submarine" capitol ship that is basically invisible to sensors and fires genuine torpedoes that have a range of well over 200 km. PD does not work against them (I'm not sure why) and they will blow the merry h*** out of anything (especially in the 6-pack configuration they are launched in.)

Sensors can be modified with up to 8 different range setting that reach out as far as you want. In the modding forum, I posted a couple of pictures of a SWACS satellite that I am making. It has an effective sensor sphere of 600KM!

For both of you...

Make the mods and check them out. The programming is slick enough it should be able to handle everything being suggested.

goduranus,

One tip. Watch the spacing on your torp launch muzzle locations. While they will launch OK, they can be killed by fratricide (a PD shot that kills one missile, but the ensuing explosion takes out its incoming neighbors.)

V/R

Just an idea to add about the quantom torps. Imagine a salvo of 6 fired at a ship.. PD takes down 3 or 4, but the others that hit are all programmed with different jump coordinates...effectivly jumping the ship to three or four seperate sectors.... owch....

I think that the 'offical' background should maintain the current size requirement for jump capable craft. Letting torp sized objects have jump drives opens a can a worms that does little good. If torps, why not fighters? If fighters, why do you need carriers? Without carriers with escorts, the game reduces to the largest dogfight in space ever released. If you say that torps with quantum drives are too expensive to just mass-produce, the war would be won by the side that could produce the most, the fastest. If they are even more expensive then that, what's the point in having them?

However, while we're on the topic of battleship alternatives, what about Battleriders? You take a normal crusier, tear out the quantum drive, load the space with guns and armor, and big docking plate on the back. Then, you take eight of these and dock them to a huge tender ship, with a oversized quantum drive. The tender takes care of the jumping and the battleriders, the battling. In the end you reduce the number of trained quantum techs you need, and increase the firepower/ton of the fleet (assuming the tender is effienct enough to tilt the scales in the right direction).

A couple of errors to your statements. Ranges on missiles and sensors are only limited to whatever you make them.

Indeed, from a modding perspective and my comments on Goduranus post are based on stock SS ships and as off now max sensor range is 150 Km and no missile will engage beyond 100 Km.
In this basis, my comments are valid.

With a mod, you can even make 1000 Km sensors and missile range, there is no limit.
But then, if his "cheap" weapon system had such a range, then true military Capital ships would have the same or probably bigger.
Perhaps they would deploy awacs fighters just to screen around the battlegroup.[;)]
The problem remains the same. The scale changes... I don't see any difference and if there is, please enlighten me.

=S=

... not bad at all... or you could even introduce battlecruisers wich are faster, light plated cruisers, armed like a BB. Yet 1 single shot could tear them appart...it s ok with me but I prefer BBs.. (I guess you all knowthat by now).[:'(]

=S=

The only dfficulty I c is the same as for any fleet engagement : luck!
Luck of the position you will jump into the sector. You can arrive near the enemy battlegroup or very far from it.
In this perspective, the quantum missile/torpedo could be intercepted. Even if the are many...

=S=

ORIGINAL: Diabolico

A couple of errors to your statements. Ranges on missiles and sensors are only limited to whatever you make them.

Indeed, from a modding perspective and my comments on Goduranus post are based on stock SS ships and as off now max sensor range is 150 Km and no missile will engage beyond 100 Km.
In this basis, my comments are valid.

With a mod, you can even make 1000 Km sensors and missile range, there is no limit.
But then, if his "cheap" weapon system had such a range, then true military Capital ships would have the same or probably bigger.
Perhaps they would deploy awacs fighters just to screen around the battlegroup.[;)]
The problem remains the same. The scale changes... I don't see any difference and if there is, please enlighten me.

=S=

My thought exactly, besides as I recall your idea was not to make a mod for StarShatter that included battleships, but BBs for StarShatter, which would logically limited by their level of tech (weapons- and sensorrange) to the StarShatterverse right?
This would "by the book" also mean NO QUANTUMJUMP SUPER MISSLETORPUNIVERSALSUPERKILLERTHINGS!
But I like the idea, perhaps it could be implemented into a mod based on another universe.
This is also the reason why I suggested missle variants for existing hulls: to add variety without moving too far off the original ship specs.

My thought exactly, besides as I recall your idea was not to make a mod for StarShatter that included battleships, but BBs for StarShatter, which would logically limited by their level of tech (weapons- and sensorrange) to the StarShatterverse right?

Indeed. or simplicity and to cut developping time, I have even suggested they use bigger models of existing ships, with a few more weapons. This would make it easier to add missing classes.

This would "by the book" also mean NO QUANTUMJUMP SUPER MISSLETORPUNIVERSALSUPERKILLERTHINGS!

My thinking exactly, as current SS technology doesn't allow it - I don't meen as a mod but as current stock SS technology, with the limits we have (like sensors max range 150 Km, missiles not targeting above 100 Km, etc...).

But I like the idea, perhaps it could be implemented into a mod based on another universe.

Me too! ... and whatever variety we can add to this game, the better!... be it by official stock SS patches or by mods.
It could work for the SW universe as the Empire's secret weapon or so, as SW technologie allows for such small quantum drives (even fighters have hyperdrives, well most of them - even some probes are capable of quantum jumps).

I fully agree with your perspective on this post Mr D.[:D]

=S=

Diab,

If you choose to go with the existing SS equipment, then no your argument would not change. I merely wanted to point out the option of increasing/altering exisitng parameters in the mod arena.

V/R