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Hi,

What about a scenario, campaign or mega-campaign for Seelowe (SeaLion).

It can be fun. You know, a reverse D-Day. with the amphibious Pz-III, shore bombardment from 11", Home-guard units acting with russian-stubborness, miscellaneous troops from Poland, Low Countries, France... with equipment from WW1 and WW2. It can be fun doing Fulmar and Albacore straffing of beaches jammed with horse-towed equipment and green-faced Wermacht infantry.

And, oh, yeah! a *BIG* paradrop action fighting in places with 2-foot-thick-wall houses. Remember "the eagle has landed"?

The only missing thing (comparing with Roman Legions invassion of UK) will be unit compossed of "children, naked women and screaming eldery" found in the picts OoB during the thrust to the LowLands....


Salut,

Originally posted by Sinner from the Prairy:
Hi,

What about a scenario, campaign or mega-campaign for Seelowe (SeaLion).

It can be fun. You know, a reverse D-Day. with the amphibious Pz-III, shore bombardment from 11", Home-guard units acting with russian-stubborness, miscellaneous troops from Poland, Low Countries, France... with equipment from WW1 and WW2. It can be fun doing Fulmar and Albacore straffing of beaches jammed with horse-towed equipment and green-faced Wermacht infantry.

And, oh, yeah! a *BIG* paradrop action fighting in places with 2-foot-thick-wall houses. Remember "the eagle has landed"?

The only missing thing (comparing with Roman Legions invassion of UK) will be unit compossed of "children, naked women and screaming eldery" found in the picts OoB during the thrust to the LowLands....


Salut,

I would pay double for a Seelowe MegaCampaign!

Sinner,
Too bad I had format my drives some time ago I used to have just that campaign which I made, it was a blast, although I added a twist. I had the Germans wait a year, for go Barbarossa, and then invade Jun 41. After securing the UK, and appiasing the Russians and invading Bermuda and Cuba in 43, the Germans then invaded the US of A and 44-45 eventually Canada 45+ . As you can imagine, I was pissed when I had to scrub that one. 1 month of solid work went into it. If there is interest I may redo it after I finish my present campaign.

I've actually been putting together a few scenarios together on Sealion.

If you want to see what I have now, let me know.

That would be fun Real Battleships against imaginary amphibious landing rafts or whatever you would have to invent, The Channel being wider than the Volga, oh thats right.. Stanlingrad and Kursk and North Africa and Army Group Center , were all flukes ..Real Spits and Hurricanes against imaginary airlift capacity ... Real courage against Imaginary heroics .. lets do it

Originally posted by Col Bob Bitchin':
If there is interest I may redo it after I finish my present campaign.

I, for one, would be interested.

To all,

Yes, I'm very much interested. Please contact me here or through my e-mail.

[just some thoughts. Please avoid if you think that Luftwaffe or RAF or... were invencible. Please avoid if you think that Kriegsmarine or Royal Navy or... were invencible.]

On the cargo-capacity of airplanes. Ju 52s and He-111 (rather old and inneffectiive as a bomber anyways) ammounted big numbers back then. You only need them for the Faalschirmjaagers. Who needs supplies?

And planned escort (Bf-110 in transit, Me-109 arriving over the area jusft before the cargo planes) could prove to be a difficult nut to crack, even for the (then, tired) RAF. Who needs aviation gas and extended-range fighters?

Also, about BattleShips, they were being used mostly somewhere else. Royal Navy was big, but their task was enormous. And the Dreaghnout-era BBs, slow as they were, could had been located and harassed by the Luftwaffe. They wouldn't be sunk (most probably) but their combat effectiveness would have been reduced (most of the optics and other non-armoured elemnts can be destroyed even if the main guns are still working and the ship is floating. But minor fires, sections destroyed, communication systems not at 100%... make for a not-so-fearful combatant. Then, if a submarine gets close enough, the speed can be reduced even further and some water will flood some compartments. Who needs surface ships?

I know, only a handful submarines were available (able to be distracted from somewhere else) on 1940. But the Royal Navy was stressed and pushed too.

Then, if (big WHATIF here) SeeLowe had been coordinated with Tora Tora Tora (Niikita Yama Nobore), then the Royal Navy would have been in trouble, with battleships and battlecruisers beign lost in the Far East. Getting SeeLowe start on September 41, as well as Pearl Harbour start also in September '41 would have been even more challenging for the Allies to win the War.

As always, is just an imaginated campaign. Not realistic. Never truly available for the Germans except a big ammount of "WHATIF" and really lucky dice-rolls for a looong time. But sure it would have been fun!


Salut

Originally posted by Sinner from the Prairy:


Then, if (big WHATIF here) SeeLowe had been coordinated with Tora Tora Tora (Niikita Yama Nobore), then the Royal Navy would have been in trouble, with battleships and battlecruisers beign lost in the Far East. Getting SeeLowe start on September 41, as well as Pearl Harbour start also in September '41 would have been even more challenging for the Allies to win the War.

As always, is just an imaginated campaign. Not realistic. Never truly available for the Germans except a big ammount of "WHATIF" and really lucky dice-rolls for a looong time. But sure it would have been fun!


Salut

I would look forward to such a campaign, also I would prefer the original plan for September 1940. Also it is unworkable, in 1941 it is even more unworkable .

This campaign can't be realistic (unless you give the Germans a 20:1 disadvantage, first scenarios German assault vs. British defense with the British using mines ), but I am sure it could be funny.

For everywone who wants to get a realistic overview about operation SeaLion:
http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm

If you want a (not very) realistic, but perhabs possible campaign with a successfull SeaLion, you should make a dejanews search for the thread "The Sealion is barking" on soc.history.what-if one or two years ago.

Or, how about a campaign with more than one path:
If the player looses the first scenarios, he must try to make a successfull evacuation (there is one evacuation scenario in "Preparing the way" and one in "From Utah to the Rhine", and I found both of them very entertaining).

In this case, there could be two versions:
One easy version with the Germans having lots of building points, and one realistic with the germans being able to land some (few) Infantry. THe campaigns could use the same scenarios, the only difference would be the allocation of building points.

Just some thoughts.

In any case, I would look forward to such a campaign.

Kind regards,
Roland

Talonsoft has done a Seelowe Campaign but it would be better with SPWAW. I guess you have to assume that the German Airforce has neutralized the British navy: truly a suspension of disbelief.

For a "positive", albeit unrealistic, spin on Sealion, check out Kenneth Macksay's book: "Invasion: the German Invasion of Britain, July 1940"

Personally, I dont think the German Kriegsmarine had it in them to pull off a major seaborne operation.. However, I think people over estimate Britains preparedness to combat a successful invasion. The British army was incomplete disarray after dunkirk, and was vitually inoperable. The RAF had also been decimated, and could not hold on forever, especially if the germans took and held a few operable airfields in the SE of England. If German ever got there heavily armored divisions on British soil, it would have been all but over...

But getting them on shore would have been the deciding factor, and probably would have failed. the book is interested reading, however..

In a book that I recently read, "Operation Sea Lion", by Egbert Kiesser, Cassell Military Paperbacks, 1999 I learnt some things:

- Hitler never wanted to invade the UK. He was a moron and thought that the Brits were, in fact, nazi-lovers-in-disguise. Again, he was a perturbated, dangerous moron.

- Goering, Hitler's "primma donna" was a moron too. And the guys at the department of production were also of moronic nature. Hermann (a.k.a. "Meyer" :p ) unrealisticaly assigned units, battle-plans and low reinforcements ratios to SeaLion. He lied to the OKH. He slowed the training pilot schools! And the department of production banned, delayed and cut the production of aircraft numbers and types that could have been employed at SeaLion preparation and landing.

- Also, the moronic tactics of Luftwaffe, issued personaly by Herman "Meyer", a good pilot bad a bad planner and organizer, were bassed on Goering's experience in WW1. Not too much attention to lessons from Spanish Civil War, Poland, France and/or the Battle of England itself were neither believed nor approved by Goering. "I have been a top pilot and I know about this stuf! shut up and follow my orders!" was his style. A moron among morons...


- The available resources assigned to barge-building capable of crossing The Channel were divided among Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine. The overall command over "floating devices" was not clear. The control of the overall operaion was not clear either.

-This created suspicion (promoted by Hitler so he could be left alone smoking ilegal substances and planning moronic wars), resentment, lack of collaboration, duplication of efforts on investigation and desing process. It also disminished the posibility of really building everything that was needed for the crossing.

-The Wehrmacht saw this as a river-crossing operation. This caused a wrong start-point for tactics, planning, resource allocation and barges characteristics planning.

-The Kriegsmarine, was experienced and confident, having been higly successfull in troop transportation before (to China in 1900 by Kaiser Wilhem and to Norway in April '40). But it always planned to start the war on late 40s. And, of course their plan was far more possible than the Wehrmacht plan.

- The Kriegsmarine planned an invasion like this: sea-transport around 7,500 men (1 inf division + 1 cyclist brigade), fly an airborne division (reinforced with a glider-carried army regiment) to capture harbours (Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft) where they could disembarck the 2nd (2 Pz Divisions, 1 Motorized Inf. Div + 1 reinforced Inf. Div) and 3rd waves (6 Panzer and Infantry divs.)

-Kriegsmarine's goal was to capture London and End-of-the-War (check-mate). This plan called for a short and fast crossing, strategic surprise and a very narrow area to control by air-and-sea: easier to do by the small Kriegsmarine. A "strategic commando raid" if you wish.

- The Wehermacht had a different idea (and a different plan). First, they planned for a crossing with about 100,000 men. Then, they decided to 'upgrade' the plan: 260,000 men, +60,000 horses, 34,000 vehicles (trucks, panzers, artillery...), 52 light flak batteries... , including 25,000 paratroopers and glider troops.

-In fact, the Luftwaffe had available on July, 14th, 1940: 750xJu 52 (20 troopers) + 150x Gliders (8 troopers + equipment), with a combined capacity of 16,200 in one jump. They expected 30% to 50% casualties on 1st wave on the beachs (~5,000 troops).

As you see, both visions were really far from each other. With a first wave of +90,000 men, the Kriegsmarine first took it with disbelief, then with open laughter.


Enough! Go and buy the darn book!

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
That would be fun Real Battleships against imaginary amphibious landing rafts or whatever you would have to invent, The Channel being wider than the Volga, oh thats right.. Stanlingrad and Kursk and North Africa and Army Group Center , were all flukes ..Real Spits and Hurricanes against imaginary airlift capacity ... Real courage against Imaginary heroics .. lets do it

lol

rotflmao

diplomacy ammo is not a strength.

cheers,
sven

Originally posted by Sinner from the Prairy:

- Also, the moronic tactics of Luftwaffe

What tactics would that be? To my knowledge, the tactics used by Luftwaffe were superior to RAF's (formations etc.). Of course, RAF adapted.

If you are referring to bombing of London, it was ordered by Hitler. To my knowledge, the whole situation went like this:

Luftwaffe bombers accidentally bomb civilian-targets in London. Churchills orders RAF to retaliate by bombing a german city (don't remember which). Hitler gets mad, and order Luftwaffe to retaliate by bombing London... And so it begins.

Nemesis:

You are right. Schwarm, Kette and Rotte were tacticaly superior to Vic.

I should have said:

"The moronic list of priorities and targets given to the Luftwaffe...". First, they nearly obliterated the newly-born radar chain, but they stoped (the Brits rebuild the radar stations because they were able to work unmolested). Then they nearly obliterated south-England airfields, but they stoped (they rebuilt and improved the airfield because nobody attaked them during rebuild). The they attacked aircraft and engine plants, but they stoped (even though plenty of aircraft and engine plants were located around Lancaster-Manchester-Leeds, that is, just south of Scotland).

It seems like they were not willing to defeat the RAF. And all those changes costed many airplanes and (veteran) pilots to the Luftwaffe.

I guess I should have saud "moronic strategy".


So, as they will say "thank you, bloody Goering-blocke!"

2 things,
Firstly just a me too I would love to see a MC of Operation SeeLowe (Yes I know I'm dreaming but hey thats fun). If I can't have a MC I'd love a standard campaign, if I can't have that I'd love a couple of scenarios

Secondly, Re: the likelihood of SeeLowe success; IF the luftwaffe had continued hitting radar and airfields for a few more months instead of switching to cities they probably would have acheived effective air superiority.
IF Hitler had concentrated the German high commands attention on SeeLowe a more realistic operational plan would have been developed. The major reason our view of SeeLowe is so poor is due to the fact that there never was a really thorough and determined attempt to plan it due to a lack of political will. Hitler was never totally dedicated to the idea of a seaborne invasion, and was more interested in Operation Barborossa.

Couple of other requirements for SeeLowe to be attempted; No Barborossa (not even detailed planning) until well after SeeLowe, Keep the Italians under control; so they don't go invading Yugoslavia/Greece.

If Hitler hadn't declared war on USA after Pearl Harbour may still have had chance to run SeeLowe after all.

[ July 14, 2001: Message edited by: ZinZan ]

Originally posted by Nemesis:


What tactics would that be? To my knowledge, the tactics used by Luftwaffe were superior to RAF's (formations etc.). Of course, RAF adapted.

If you are referring to bombing of London, it was ordered by Hitler. To my knowledge, the whole situation went like this:

Luftwaffe bombers accidentally bomb civilian-targets in London. Churchills orders RAF to retaliate by bombing a german city (don't remember which)...

Berlin

Sinner, I agree. A Mega Campaign for Sealion would be great. I hope at some point that will happen. But me'thinks the guys at Matrix have a lot on their plates right now.

Hi there,
I live and have lived allof my life in the area that sealion would have occured in (Folkestone, Hythe, and currently Rye) I also have in my possesion 1940's Ordance 1:10000 scale maps of the whole area.
I am planning on doing a full blown campaign for sealion (expect it in 6 weeks or so) but would much rather make it into a mega-campaign and actually string the battles togehter with some relevance e.g. Fallschimjager attack on hawkinge airfield means that there is less british air cover available for inital landing - are there any tools for doing this - or is anyone at matrix interested enough to contact me - this is a serious offer.
Support, ideas and suggestions all welcome
P.S. the aid of a graphic artist would help as nothing anywhere looks vaguely like a Martello tower and these would have been a key part of the initial beach defence

Here are some alternatives that I think would make Sea Lion a possible success.

1940
1. German Army successfully destroys the entire BEF , there is no miracle at Dunkirk. France surrenders shortly thereafter and the Germans bounce the Channel while the British are still very disorganized. German forces would be small and ill supplied, but the British even worse.

2. Everything in Zinzan’s post about better use of Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine as well as postponing Barbarossa and modest cooperation on the part of Mussolini. In addition, the British have to make some colossal blunder and lose a pretty good chunk of the Royal Navy and RAF.

1941: Hitler and Stalin decide to stay friendly for a while and Germany devotes all its efforts into building up the requisite forces for an invasion. This means a vastly stronger Luftwaffe, much improved technical means of assaulting beaches as well as swarms of E-Boats. Also a large and effective U-Boat force. Of course the Commonwealth forces have a year to prepare too so they are much stronger.

One of the fascinating plans I’ve read about in the marathon discussion on this topic in the “Art of Wargaming” section, was the British plan to run a cruiser aground at the spot of the German landings. That would have been devastating! Can you imagine a German cruiser beached at Normandy, with no Allied Navy and unsinkable to aircraft. What a slaughter.

I really don’t see how Sea Lion could have possibly been successful IRL in 1940, barring incomprehensible stupidity on the part of the British High Command.

Hi!

Yes this SeaLion campaign sounds retty good!

I've been reading about it and, if you have the opportunity, get the book "Operation Sea Lion" (Egbert Kiesser, Cassel Military Paperbacks).

It's the German view of the operation. Great for OOBs, deployments, areas...

Maybe an inital and easy attack to Jersey Island, to get experience?

Sadly, I have never seen such towers, so I cannot help. Any picture/URL?


Salut,
Sinner