Matrix Games Forums

Before I begin, any update on Fred's health?

I whish him well.

Rockin'Harry sent me the information on how to create higher level terrain in SPWAW using fred's edtior Wavmap.

I have also read the information in the SPWAW manual. Unfortunately the info in the maual is not complete, it would seem that it was printed before all the research was done and there are a lot of sections that say "to be finished".

The process to alter single hexes elevation number is laborious but fairly simple to understand.

The process for the graphic representation is complicated, and the explanations given difficult to follow for non techies like me.

I was told in a thread on the Forum that a tutorial on Fred's editors would be posted on "Military gamer online", but the link provided took me to their "what's new" page and I could not find my way to hte appropriate page from there.

I have lots of questions on how best to use these facilities and need more information.

I would be grateful for any help.

Originally posted by Fabs:
I have lots of questions on how best to use these facilities and need more information.

Me, too! I want to know how to build BIG mountains so I can talk a designer into making a hypothetical scenario with the Germans invading Switzerland!

Hi all!

I too, have been conversing with RockinHarry about this very topic. As a result, I'm working on a tool to automated this: the fabled Mountainiser. I've tried this is the past with little success, but this time I think it should work - RockinHarry's ideas have been good

If it does indeed work, you'll be able to raise an entire map by 30, carve away at the edges of your mountianous peaks, and repeat until your landscape is suitably spikey.

This is my current SP:WaW programming project - everything else has been put on hold until this is done. So something should appear soon

(I've been a little slow of late, as my real, paying job has expected me to assist with a trade show - I'm the only one that can drive the van...)

Fabs, Do you think Rockin' Harry would be willing to post this information for the rest of us? Or could you post it? Sounds like it would be very valuable for map makers.

To Warrior:

Good idea, Germans invading Switzerland.
If you need i can provide you with Swiss maps on a CD rom with informations about elevations and all the things you need. Even some "hidden" fortress built inside Swiss Alps that are now not more covered by military secret. Some have been sold to people because they are not considered more useful.
If you are really interested drop me an e-mail with your needs and i will see what i can give/provide to you.
Bye

I have been able to get elevations up to 60 or 70, but when I go to add other details using the SPWAW map editor, I loose the slope graphics. The cursor says that the elevations remained the same but no slopes.
Same goes for when I add forces to the map. The slopes dissappear.

Yes the proccess involved getting those elevations took a bit of trial and error, but it does work. Now if only I can figure out how to make the slopes stay where they are supposed to. The existing tutorials and info does not cover all of the bases.

Me, too! I want to know how to build BIG mountains so I can talk a designer into making a hypothetical scenario with the Germans invading Switzerland!

I'd be happy to be able to make realistic battles in Italy, because that campaign fascinates me, but with the elevation limitations in SPWAW I just don't think it can be done well as things are now. I hope the "Mountanizer" works, but I have my doubts as to SPWAW being able to handle higher elevations without problems.

Great news, ectizen, I'm now hooked on waiting for the mountainizer.

Don, I've done some experiments with the limited capabilities that Rockin'Harry has kindly highlighted and I have been able to master.

LOS can be tricky, but it seems to be a question of playing around with the relative jumps in elevation to get the effect you are looking for.

I can't seem to figure a way to obtain the effect of a regular slope rising at the same rate for several levels.

Another challenge is the effect on movement if one wants to model steeper slopes than those currently available.

Ten meters elevation change in 50 meters is not very steep.

I would advise using mountainous terrain for infantry only scenarios because, as has been pointed out many times by Paul, the armored combat routines don't assume sloping in the calculations, and AFVs would frequently have been unable to negotiate steep terrain.

Providing roads that have cliffs on both sides to stop the vehicles from leaving them is the only exception to get around the steep slopes, but still does not deal with the limitations of the armored combat system, and would not make for a very interesting game.

Having the possibility of using more elevations and steeper terrain would make it easier to faithfully represent scenarios from the Noeway, Tunisia, Sicily, Italy, Balkan, Eastern, South East Asia and Pacific theaters where mountainous or hilly terrain was an important feature of the fighting.

As for Germany invading Switzerland, the geography of the area would have made it a pretty stupid option.

Switzerland was allowing the Allies to use their air space and the Axis to use its Alpine railway routes.

If Hitler had invaded, he would easily have overrun the relatively flat terrain in northern Switzerland, only to find the Swiss retreating into their mountain redoubt, thus shutting off the Alpine routes (the only strategic asset worth fighting for, and that he had access to without firing a shot, just by dint of intimidation) and reversing the roles of the Italian fighting, with the Swiss in a position to exploit the terrain for an economic defense that would have tied down huge numbers of German troops needed elsewhere.

He would, furthermore, have been fighting people of mostly germanic stock who were no strangers at showing two fingers to their more powerful Germanic brethren to the East and to the North, something they had repeatedly demonstrated through a long history.

Hitler had no qualms about rearranging borders if it suited his designs. That he never invaded Switzerland is the best demonstration that, whatever use he had for it, he could get what he wanted without using military force.

During the early years of the war, the Swiss were not about to envite the germans to invade by refusing to accommodate their needs for transit through the Alps.

After Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, he could never have spared the troops.

I'm afraid he had other, much bigger fish to fry.

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Fabs ]

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Fabs ]

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Fabs ]

ECtizen, you'll get a Raider medal from me personally if you can come up with a Mountainizer for us.

I would be delighted beyond words. You've done so many great programs. Give us one more, please?

Wild Bill

I tried posting Rockin'harry's e-mail here but the software won't allow me to do that. It keeps complaining about a "parenthesis in the HTML tag", whatever TF that means.

It allowed this through, so there must be some problem with lifting text from an e-mail and posting it here.

I suggest you contact Rockin'Harry direct. His e-mail was very informative.

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Fabs ]

I'm impressed with the amount of work you guys are putting into this, and I do hope you succeed! I'd like to do some Rapido River crossings before CL gets here!

To Mai Thai!

Perhaps the germans attacked switzerland from the east, from the land vorarlberg/austria (i live there) - so the first scenario would be a river assault over the rhein - would be a pleasure for me to do that. I know the swiss had quite a few bunkers on their side of the rhein and their guns were able to shot at every soldier who wanted to cross the rhein. They were even able to slam our house into pieces.

Perhaps this would be a nice scenario, you play the suiss and i´m the german side - but be carefull because i know where you have your bunkers (they are no open to visit)


Marder

...they are now (tip mistake) open to visit..

Hi all,

sorry for the incomplete section in the SPWAW manual on how to handle the higher elevations in Steel Panther maps. It was a work in progress at that time as it´s been inserted the V5.0 manual.

Now with some more time I managed to put more apropriate info into the document on making these custom hills. It´s no easy stuff and explaining the procedures unfortunately takes my english over the limit.

Anyway,..I already sent the update to some of you (Fabs, ectizen..) and I may send it to all who are interested also.

Drop me a mail at:

harizan@web.de

Hopefully ectizen manages to get his "mountainizer" working soon,....my hand is still hurting from the hundreds of mouse clicks needed for a caucasus map made lately. Aaarghh....

Nevertheless,...the slope tiles now stick on SP maps and most landscapes mentioned above (balcan, winter,...any) can be done.
http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/Mountains.jpg http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/Mountains_Zoom.jpg http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/Balcan.jpg http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/Wooded.jpg

...still half a year(?)left til CL

BTW: the link to military gamer forum. http://www.militarygameronline.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
________
Harry

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: RockinHarry ]

You´ve been warned
Excerpt from document:

1.c More complex hills and multiple levels/slopes

If you need more complex and higher hills similar to those in SP2WW2 with more than the usual 3 levels/slopes, then the good news is: it works! The bad news is, it´s a whole lot of work and awkward to do also. If time is a factor for you....

Problem is the visual appearance of "slopes" as they are needed to reflect the height differences on the maps. No sense to have a level 100 hex without having a clue (slopes) to see that it´s there!

Important to know is to first place level 30 terrain in SP Editor in places where you want to put higher slopes/levels on top. Reason is the S29 Byte in "Inspection Mode" window needs to be set to some level 30 terrain first or the slopes get messed up later if you return to SPWAW Editor to complete map works. Example for S29 byte:4=clear level 30, 8=rough level 30,...etc.
Reminder: S29 single Byte datafield is in upper right corner of Inspection Window!

In Freds Editor then you can place the slope graphic tiles with the "Tile transfer" command (middle left button below or Options/Tile Transfer) on the map. Apropriate SHP (shape) files can be found in the manual above. Some examples: Ter001.shp="Clear/mixed" terrain slopes, Ter003.shp= "rough" terrain slopes, Ter047.shp="Cliffs"...etc.

BTW: It´s good idea to also have "Inspection Mode" window open, so you can see the actual changes in data.

Setting for "tile transfer" window: "Load"=selected tileset shape file (...Clear slopes=1). "Sect"=6 (=Layer6 in S29 section). Section/Layer6 is originally needed by game for "wood" tiles, so you can´t place "woods" on the slopes once you placed them on the map!
After loading the needed tileset you can select apropriate slope tile with left mouse click on the graphic and place it finally on the map with a right mouse click. Now you have the "pure" graphic of your slope on the map.
Next step is to edit the S8 section values of your new slope hex. Needed are: Height, terrain class (...and maybe S8 Bytes 6 and 8 )

Height=S8 Byte4 (example 35...), Terrain class=S8 Bytes 0-3 (..for now just set Byte0 to 2)

What height values for the slopes can be used? Actually you can use any, but my opinion is it´s best to stick with the SPWAW system, by making them odd numbers with steps of 5 between the levels. ( example: level 30--slope 35--level 40--slope 45.....) Value 5 is also the minimum height difference noticed by SPWAW for LOS considerations! Also these are "gentle" slopes which can be traversed by SPWAW units normally....if S8/byte0=2 is set also.
Reminder: S8/byte0=2 -->"slope" is needed for eating the movement points for entering the slope. Also it provides defense modifier.

If you want steeper slopes between the levels (example: level 30--slope 45--level 60...), then you have to take care yourself that you make these "steep" slopes behaving properly in SPWAW. For example vehicles shouldn´t be able to traverse these steep "slopes" anymore and you can prevent this by making the "slope" hex also a terrain class that is denied to vehicles.

Apropriate terrain class is for example: "Boulders" (S8/byte3=16)
If you want to make it traversable for "cliffhangers" only then make it "cliff" class. (S8/byte3=8)
If you want to make it impassable to any units then.....make it "impassable"! (S8/byte2=4)

Remember that paths and roads make these terrain classes traversable for vehicles again.
Exception: Cliffs and Impassable.

An issue not to forget is to know that no matter how steep/high you make any slopes, the distance between two adjacent hexes in SPWAW is always 50 yards/meters!!!!
Example: level 0--slope 150--level 300 hexes are still 50 yards apart for any calculations made by SPWAW! (sighting, shooting...etc) So shooting from this level 300 hex into adjacent slope 150 hex is still "point blanc" fire.

Remember,..the mentioned procedure is just for the slopes. For the levels you just need to set height and terrain class bytes.

If you finished your customized slopes/levels in Freds Editor, then save map and go back to SPWAW map editor. Now you can make your "bald" hills looking nicer, by placing additional terrain features like rocks, rough, trees etc. on the levels but not on the customized slopes!!
Switch "hexsides" in SPWAW on, so you don´t click on the slopes accidentally!

1.d ...Additional tools and procedures

If you want to convert topographical maps or simply plan to construct high complexity "hill" landscapes then you need an additional paint program like Paintshop PRO for example.
In Paintshop (...PSP) you can first setup your bitmap with the right "scale" for work with SPWAW. Example for standard SPWAW 100x80 map would be a 1000x800 pixel bitmap with colour depth of your choice. (...I prefer 16Bit) A 100x80 pixel bitmap would look too "blocky".
Now you can paint your slopes/levels with different colours. Shades of grey are suited for example. Good choice for drawing would be a hardedged brush with size of ~50.
You can also draw on additional layer with different colours other terrain features like woods, roads etc. This layer can then be hidden again to have an unobstructed sight on your slopes map.

If you´re pleased with your slopes/levels painting then you can enter SPWAW map editor.
Setup your map to same size as in the paint program. ( as in example above 100x80..)
"Task switch" back to Paint programm and place some (text) marker at the starting point of your in SPWAW to be drawn slopes. Take the found pixel coordinate and "task switch" back to SPWAW and place a terrain feature on map with 1/10th of pixel value. Terrain feature may be "road" for example. Purpose is to place as many "points" as needed on map to connect your intervening slopes. If you´ve finished this map, it might look like filled with roads and many of them ending at their starting points (like "race tracks"). These "roads" are in fact placeholders for the real slope graphics to be placed in Freds Editor!

Save map in SPWAW and load into Freds Editor. Now you can replace all the roads with apropriate slope tiles. (..again Tile Transfer....see above) Simply put the slope tiles ontop of the roads. (hexgrid should be on) If you´re done you may edit the S8 stats of your just placed slopes. Edit a single slope hex and use paste and copy buttons of Inspection window to edit all remaining slope hexes to desired values. This way you also delete the road graphics which are still visible. Remember...roads are handled differently by SPWAW map drawing routines. Read apropriate section in this document above.

Why do I use roads???...cause they´re looking similar to slope tiles and if your´re in tile transfer window it´s easier to find the apropriate looking piece of graphic to fit into the map. Also as you know, Freds Editor does not have zoom function and if you have large hills with multiple custom slopes you soon become lost if you don´t pre- draw these slopes in SPWAW first (...with roads)!
Of course if you´ve better brain capacity than me, you can put the slope coordinates directly from the paint program into Freds Editor.

Darn..this is much much work,...but you even can make more levels than in SP2WW2 this way!
Hopefully for entertaining scenarios also......
------------------------
Have fun

__________
Harry

Originally posted by Fabs:
[QB]As for Germany invading Switzerland, the geography of the area would have made it a pretty stupid option.[QB]

Of course it would have been stupid, and as you said, he really didn't need to... BUT, Hitler was a madman, and he might have done it. I'm talking hypothetical here.

Hey this sounds exciting. Some situations were really influenced by the steepness of the terrain and the height of hills and mountains. And, sometimes you just really wished you had a few more elevation levels to model that one hill that's supposed to be a bit taller than the rest.

Tomo

Thanks for the info RockinHarry, It has been almost two months since I last experimented with Fred's editor. I think that your info post will cure my problems using it. Thanks!!

With regards to creating accurate hexmaps have you seen the Hexgrid program?

How do you deal with oversized maps in WAWED??

(bigger than 100x80 hex maps)

Tomo

To Marder:

Yes, they are now open for visit and even some have been sold to people, i visited some and i was very surprised to see what a good job was done to defend us.
The objective for the battle plan of swiss army was to leave all the terrain to the enemy and defend with the teeth the alps. This kind of plan allowed a better defensive position and cutted in two the roads from south to north europe.
Bye