Matrix Games Forums

Of the games I have played as W-Allies or Su the situation at end game is the same-the entire German amry is in W-Germany. This can be around 60-100 units. (Note I play on challenging and when I play Germany I know I will not lose due to Festung W-GER) I have spent 7-8 turns w/ my AI allies to try and reduce the place after Berlin has fallen- This seems incorrect with history.

Why is W germany a fort? Seems like history would say that Berlin is the logical place for the fort is if any fort at all.

Couple of suggestions:

1. Get rid of the fort or make all forts disappear when a side has developed nukes.
2. The militia should only be generated once per season not once the SU attacks and then again when the W-Allies attack in the same season.
3. The militia should only be generated once a game for Germany.
4. Germany should surrender if Berlin is occupied if more than 2 consecutive seasons.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

I vote for #4. That will remove the ahistorical incentive for stockpiling troops in WG.

I believe WG is fortified to reflect the presence of the Siegfried Line. It should probably only include the left hex(?) side. But the game is not programmed that way, nut it's good enough. It's too bad the game can't reproduce the strangulation of Allied supplies by the German retention of Antwerp and the Scheldt estuary.

You're asking for a grand strategic game to simulate local, operational-level problems.

Remember, turn in this game lasts three months.

As for original poster's request, I guess (but don't take my word for it) that fortifying WG has more to do with discouraging sneaky/gamey amphib invasions than with Siegfried line. Anyway, it makes sense for WG to fall after EG. Remember, last German units to lay down their weapons were actually in Bavaria/Austria.

O.

If the Germans still hled its industrial base, I doubt it would have surrendered has Berlin fallen but the WA were still trying to get through the Siegfried line.

Once you have germany reduced to Western Germany I bomb the industry and once I have the Bomb and damamge teh German industry down nothing its an auto victory.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Remember, last German units to lay down their weapons were actually in Bavaria/Austria.

O.

I think this was down to nobody giving a XXXX that they were there. The point raised here and in my earlier post is that in the historical context Festung Ruhr was never going to be a likely occurence. Berlin was too significant a political target. Hitler realised this and it is why it was defended bitterly to the last.

I would be in favour of some chance of auto-surrender when Berlin has fallen, not immediately automatic, but I cannot see that German resistance would have stayed strong and organised after that event.

You're asking for a grand strategic game to simulate local, operational-level problems.

Yes, I suppose that would be one level of detail down from the current scale. By the same token, you don't get a Dunkirk.

would be in favour of some chance of auto-surrender when Berlin has fallen, not immediately automatic, but I cannot see that German resistance would have stayed strong and organised after that event.

That seems likely. Certainly not for the 3 month span of a WaW turn. The practical minded computer wants to protect resources, but we're talking about a top-heavy, increasingly demented regime here.

It might be informative to get the actual breakdown, east vs west, of German forces toward the end of the war.

A quick check of my The Times Atlas of the Second World War Edited by Keegan has the following -

"The German Army in the west had been reduced to a strength 26 divisions in the fighting west of the Rhine and could only offer patchy resistance to the allied assault and advance. Most forces, as before, were concentrated against the Russians; estimates of the later in mid-April are as high as 214 divisions, including 34 Panzer and 15 motorized."

The Ruhr pocket surrendered before Berlin fell.

So, this game seems to have it backwards with mostGerman forces in the West. WaW is a great game. I just want it to be better. It is silly to have West Germany holding out to the WAllies and the SU for 1.5 years after Berlin has fallen. There are many reasons why this would not have been possible - Terrain - Oil - Food- Politics-Nukes etc.

Just an idea : why not *also* putting a fort in E Ger/Berlin ? [X(]
It could correct AI behavior - if AI goes right to bunker when cornered [:'(] - and would prevent surprise drops/landings in E Ger.
Sure it'll make finishing Germany harder, but it *was* hard isn'it ? [;)]

Peter F makes a good point. If we say that it would have made more sense for a last stand in the West, than we can also say that the anti German Partisans should be toned down because any sensible insane despot bent on military world domination would have treated the locals better.

The continued resistance of Germany after Berlin falls is one of the few things about the game that just does not "feel" right to me. A turn of mopping up or a garrison requirement is one thing, but the idea of a powerful force in Western Germany that fights on like lions is another.

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

...It could correct AI behavior - if AI goes right to bunker when cornered [:'(] ...

I don't think that's what the AI is doing by over-protecting West Germany. There are just more factories and resources there to protect, as there should be. In reality, Hitler, or his generals, was willing to let the Allies win as long as the Russian's didn't get Berlin. This is why most of what was left of the German army was facing the Russians at the end. The Germans were also hoping the Allies would keep going and attack the Russian's and let them join the Allies.
I don't think, and for sure I don't know, the AI has these political considerations in mind. It's just trying to hang on to what will let hang on the longest.

I don't think that's what the AI is doing by over-protecting West Germany. There are just more factories and resources there to protect, as there should be.

You're right. The computer is being eminently practical. But, in this case, practical may not be realistic. As the previous poster noted, it doesn't feel right.

Another factor: realistic German commanders foresaw the danger of sacrificing too much territory to the Soviets and this desire dovetailed with Hitler's paranoia. Units were transferred east.

don't have the game yet, but i'v now read every single post on the GGWaW forum and i HAVE to buy it ASAP! it's almost too good to be true - but it is!!

thought i'd add that units defending after berlin falls in the game is not completely a-historical -> even after Germany itself surrendered small pockets of units containing men of Allied-liberated countries (france/low countries/norway, i think all in the SS) fought on, knowing they would likely be shot or imprisoned for picking the wrong side to fight on! of course for game purposes i'm sure they didn't last for more than a few days which is far short of a 3 month turn, and they probrably wouldn't stack up to more than a couple militia -> but they did keep fighting!