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OK, given that the Spain/Gibraltar/Sea Lion strat is all the rage at the moment for Germany, what should the WAllies be doing to prevent it?

Obviously there is little you can do to stop the fall of Spain. If Germany wants it, they will have it. For the other two, you have some options.

So, what are some good ideas to stop the nasty Nazis from overrunning the UK?

As was stated in another thread, the Germans can mass up an impressive array of airpower against England. Get your Fighters to Range 2 and you should be able to shut down the RAF and have enough airpower to smash any coastal arty. A few Paras can then waltz in and take the territory (with additional air support). After that, even Germany's limited transport capacity can dump 10+ units with plenty of supply to finish the job.

What does Britain do to defend?

Mass Infantry? Mass AA? Mass Fighters? What role can the Royal Navy play in keeping the Germans at bay? Where are the best places to station them?

Personally, I tend to keep the Germans bottled up in Kiel, but I can see that that might be tough in the face of massed air power. Do you fall back or try and 'tough it out'? Can you sit adjacent to England and rely on patrolling Fighters to keep the bad guys off of you? I think that should be possible, but a lot will depend on how much air power the Germans commit to. There is no doubt that Germany can outproduce England in combat aircraft if she so chooses.

So, what about other options? The earliest that a full fledged Sea Lion can probably be attempted is W41 (and then it can only be airborne and air units..no amphib in the winter). It takes at least that long to get the Fighters to R2 and to get other assets in place.

That leaves you Sp40, Su40, and F40 with which to construct a defense. Can you build enough Infantry in that time to prevent a Sea Lion? If so, at what cost to the rest of the war effort? I think England could put about 4-5 extra Infantry in the field in that time span. Can they survive the German air long enough to defend?

Of all the options, I think building Arty is probably the weakest because Arty is very vulnerable to the one thing the Germans can commit as much as they want...air power. I dont think you'll have enough time to get more Arty AND more Flak out.

Perhaps Flak? If the German is relying in Paratroops and air to take the territory, then Flak can obviously help here. Unfortunately, Flak doesnt count for holding the ground and once the foothold is made, you are probably screwed by the pile-on from the sea.

What about stripping East Africa and India of the Militia and send them to England to guard? Can they be sufficient? There is an additional Air unit floating around there as well. Usually, I see it sent to North Africa. Can it be of better service in England?

Anyways, what are y'alls thoughts on defending England? Can it be done against a determined German invasion? Is it easier than it looks? Anyone have any success stories holding England against a real invasion? How about success invading England even with an active defense?

Joe, you've read about my first game as Allies dealing with an ongoing Sealion so I'll make this short...

You mentioned keep the German navy blockaded in Kiel. I do believe that is suicidal unless you are using my new 'sitting duck' tactic for the UK navy. Once Germany has upgraded range for its planes, it will base them in Netherlands which can bomb all of England, Scotland and your fleet next to Kiel. Couple that with a sorty by the Kriegsmarine and there goes the blockade.

As for stripping India and sending units to the UK, that is risky and also just a weak gesture. If Japan invaded Russia like they are in my game. then its fairly low risk, otherwise its a gift of territory to the Japanese (I'd scoop it up with glee were I a banzai captain). Anyways, those poor Indians are just gonna get bombarded to death anyways but I think they may have given England one more season of football.

UK defense from my morsel of experience:

1) kill his subs ASAP cause he can't build subs, tanks, planes, transports, and paratroopers/infantry. Its too much manpower cost to do them all so once the subs are dead, they're dead unless he builds more and hands the deed to Berlin over to the real Uncle Joe

2) plop down a good force of infantry (not militia) and fighters. The infantry may seem like wasted production but they can always be sent to France later.

3) get some bombers cooking, not for hitting France cause his airforce will kill you, but for antinaval and anti-landing force defence. Bomber type and torp teching is something to be considered though. Is it worth the early industry points to up torp tech? Personally I'm not interested in spending heaps of tech points on bomber evasion and ground attack cause I prefer to try something more imaginative like a nice early landing force to threaten all those many beaches.

Fighters and artillery in my opionion, though i havent really seen a determined sea lion.

If germany isnt pushing very hard in africa in Sp40, and is setting up his airforce in france, try to build fighters with all the manpower you have in GB. (Probably inf/transports in india/australia/canada.) Make sure to put max research into both range, evasion, air attack and submarine attack of the fighters.

Try to have at least 1 anti air and 1 art in each of england and scotland. Fighters in both areas may be a good idea, provided germany doesnt get airial superiority.

Make sure to have the med closed for as long as possible, if neccessary from the south (that spanish part of algeria). Bombers and cv air is good for this. This will leave him with just the german fleet vs england.

As soon as you have range to on your fighters, try to attack any enemy fighters in france every turn, as this is the only way to have fighters in both england and scotland. (If he can initiate the attacks, he can kill half your fighters at a time) Note that if you initiate the air battle, your repairs will be finishted the same turn, while there will be 1 turn where his fighters are not in france. Use this to your advantage.

If you win the air war (or at least tie it), your artillery should be safe between the fighter screen, and no enemy land units will be able to land. If you can reach 42 without him landing, he will face enormous builds from Russia, both in land tech and units. If he turns towards Russia to do a 41 barbarossa, switch to bombers, and make life a hell for him

If you are not able to knock out most of his fighters (in france) ever turn, you will be facing air attacks, most likely on scotland. (Landing in england is pretty hard, due to more milita (4), popping up there. Try to have all your AA guns there if possible. Also, in this scenario, if he has built several transports, you may want to put your fleet in his way, hoping to fend off his invasion a few more turns. With all your fleet in one stack,you should be pretty safe, as long as you keep some air cover. (Having increased evasion + anti air on your heavy fleet is very nice in this situation, as well as increased ASW on the light fleets). Flying fighters over your fleet could be a good idea, but it is usually better just to attack any axis fighters in france.

Germany is very much on a time constraint in this scenario, as the western allies have a highter production from the beginning, they can continue to upgrade the tech of the fighters even after it surpasses the world standard, while engaging in such a tech race will make it possible for Russia to get very invulnerable armor before germany attacks them. (Even with a smashing success on the german part, the above recipie should at least last througout 41, with a 42 barbarossa if at all.)

I think I may have to run a test of this scenario this evening.....

Building infantry _could_ be an alternative. GB could build as much as 2.5 per turn, with more coming in from india and Canada. It should be possible to have about 5 infantry in scotland before any invasion is realistic, and a couple in england.

With max evasion tech on infantry, they are pretty hard to kill with bombers. At least 1 level will be researched before any invasion, giving you a defence of 24. If he sees what you are doing, he will probably have 6 land attack on his bombers, but will still only hit about 40% of the time. This will move to your advantage, as durability of infantry is 4. At level 8 evasion, infantry is getting unkillable, except by teched out tanks. Unless he can kill your infantry with air forces, there is no way he can land, as he will have to spend 4 production points and 4 manpower for every infantry he wants to put ahore, and he needs at least 2:1 in units to win the invasion battle.

The problem with building infantry, is that it gives germany the chance turn agains russia without having lost much (assuming that he waited with building transports untill he had airial superiority. Also, he gets the option to bomb UK factories and harbors instead of units, and once he turns towards Russia, your infantry can not be employed effectively until you are ready to land in france. So if he pulls back the sealion attempt after realizing he has forced you over on a total defensive, he wins the game.

My tale of woe begins with a very perceptive Axis opponent who crushed me in two back-to-back games. He pretty much did what ever he wanted, where he wanted.

His strategy in both games begins at base with the use of German U-boats racing ahead in tech production. As the allies, I tried desperately to keep up with anti sub capability but could not. All of the counter moves I made proved to be nothing more than lessons in futility as he repeatedly and effectively sealed off the allied sea-lanes. After losing Britain in game #1, I tried to build a defense in Britain for game #2 and he took Gibraltar. He then moved subs into the Indian Ocean side of the Suez as well as other points around Africa, sealing her completely off. He then positioned subs off of the eastern coast of Canada, who was busy at the time building transports, bombers, and fighters. A turn later, Canada fell with no DOW from the United States which was very surprising to me.

So I now must ask; what can one do with Britain? If you do not defend North Africa, the route to the Caucus oil fields is wide open. If you do commit to North Africa, the German player needs only to build his air force, pounding the UK into submission. What I have learned is this; if the German player wants the British Isles, he will have them. There is nothing save very lucky dice rolls that the UK player can do alone vs. a determined axis player, as his U-boats are invincible until late 1943, early 1944. By then too late.

V

ORIGINAL: VI66

So I now must ask; what can one do with Britain? If you do not defend North Africa, the route to the Caucus oil fields is wide open. If you do commit to North Africa, the German player needs only to build his air force, pounding the UK into submission. What I have learned is this; if the German player wants the British Isles, he will have them. There is nothing save very lucky dice rolls that the UK player can do alone vs. a determined axis player, as his U-boats are invincible until late 1943, early 1944. By then too late.

V

¨
You were allied in both games? If yes, try to turn the table on him, and see if you are able to do the same to him. If you win then you both have better strategies as germany (which _could_ mean that the the strat is unbeatable), but if not, he is just better than you.

All I wanted to add was that I disagree with not bringing Infantry from India to the UK. I even bring the Fighter from Australia to somewhere it can be used.

I've never faced a determined Sealion but I've found that anti-sub on aircraft works well. I always max fighter tech as the Allies too; that coupled with a few extra ground units seems to make Sealion unpalatable so far. In the commonwealth I always build ground units (India) and transports (Australia). The manpower from the commonwealth really is key to the survival of the UK.

Oh just thought of one more thing, light fleets with increased evasion are VERY hard to hit with aircraft and can be used to block just about any sea area.

Oh just thought of one more thing, light fleets with increased evasion are VERY hard to hit with aircraft and can be used to block just about any sea area.

Don't waste too much time building up your light fleet evasion. It's your sea lanes the axis is interupting. You must be able to knock him out.

You were allied in both games? If yes, try to turn the table on him, and see if you are able to do the same to him. If you win then you both have better strategies as germany (which _could_ mean that the the strat is unbeatable), but if not, he is just better than you.

There is no dought he is better. I was brought to my knees quickly in both games.

I agree that working on light fleet evasion would be smart cause it can be coupled with antisub and maybe even add on antishipping tech as well to turn them into jack of all trades ships.

In my game, Germany is still continuing his Sealion operation going on for about 2 years. I know for sure had my ships put away his navy this would not be happening at all. My ASW is up now so his subs are gonna feel it but his navy still persists in dominating the sea. Since the UK fleet cannot handle the Germans, I think teched up light fleets would be much more efficient to use from the start.

I made a mistake with light fleets cause I put more of them into production at the start of the game to get the long build time started but forget that they boost up the tech costs a lot. Rock and a hard place again. Build up tech only or tech + light fleet builds?

Other advantages to light fleets is they use less supply than the heavies and can wipe out German transports easier.

What about teching UK fighters to 2 range and then doing fighter sweeps over France to kill bombers?

After a fair amount of experimenting, I think its fair to say that the #1 job of England in the first year or so of the war is to SURVIVE. Nothing else matters as much as having a secure base from which to stage to hit Germany later on.

Unfortunately, simple survival can be very tough if Germany really WANTS to take England. The simple fact is that Germany can outproduce England by a fairly wide margin and there are no other threats they have to worry about for a few years.

So, I think its up to the Brit player to make it unpalatable and as costly as possible. Flak and AA seem key here because Germany must use air power to win (unless they want to waste a lot of production on transports). Bringing in troops from the Commonwealth also seem to be key.

One of the harder to defend Sea Lion attempts that I have seen is for Germany to take Spain on turn 2, followed by Gibraltar on turn 3. This frees up the Italians to add their transports and Fleets to the invasion effort. While doing this, Germany builds up a huge force of Tac Air and Fighters (and techs them up). Germany can afford to research them by ignoring Uboats (which wont be as necessary if England falls).

With air superiority, Germany can clear the beaches and run off the RN. A quick landing by Paras and a few Infantry by sea and they are sitting in London. The German air force by this time is usually around 21-24 planes...a number that Britain cannot hope to match.

Ok, so looking for ways to de-rail this...digging-in in Gibraltar might stall the Germans enough to prevent the Italians from coming into play. This takes out about half the transports (assuming Germany doesnt build any). It also means that Germany cant afford to strip the Med of garrison forces like they can if they hold Gibraltar.

Unfortunately, holding Gibraltar is not a guarantee that the Germans cant take England. In fact, depending on what you have to send there to defend it, it can make the Home Island even weaker (Germany doesnt need her tanks to take England, so you are not drawing off much from their army by holding out in Gibraltar). The German air forces and Paras with 2 landing units are sufficient to take out England if something else is not done to defend.

So far, sacrificing the RN might work, but without winning the air war, you will lose a LOT of ships to German air. Subs might work too if you can interdict the movement of any reinforcements into England. Massing up Infantry can take a long time for the Germans to thin them out (especially if you can get Inf Evasion up by one before things get ugly).

I think upping Light Fleet evasion might help too, but I'm not sure it can be done in time with any other research combo (WAllies have a lot of Light Fleets at start). Possibly increasing AA on ships will help, but compared to the number of Tac Air that Germany can throw, I'm not sure its worth research that early in the war.

One thing to remember is that Germany is 'on the clock' at this point. Every turn they delay, Russia and America get stronger. They have to force the issue before America can intervene or before Russia can hit them from behind. So England only has to stall for time.

Finally, I believe that a true Sea Lion attempt might be an all or nothing proposition. If Germany goes all out and fails, I believe the game is probably lost to them. On the other hand, if England falls, I think the Allies are pretty much done. Its not set in stone either way, but I'd be very surprised to see a player pull out of either failed position without a good deal of luck (or blunders by their opponent).

In the game I am playing with RodentDung I managed to pull off a Sealion. It just took one or two turns too long. I lost a 73 percent chance of taking Scotland the first time and my first attack on England also failed and generated more militia to be killed the next turn.

I think if I understood interception rules better he wouldnt have had a chance to get his other troops in by blocking the oceans with my subs or air units. Losses in terms of units mean nothing to the UK, getting time means everything.

Because we play without a timeline I think I will still lose the game. In a scenario with an end date I am pretty sure taking England early guarantees victory because as long as you dont awake the US you can throw all your troops into the battle at the East Front for a few turns, breaking the Russian production capacity beyond repair.

ORIGINAL: dembe73

Because we play without a timeline I think I will still lose the game. In a scenario with an end date I am pretty sure taking England early guarantees victory because as long as you dont awake the US you can throw all your troops into the battle at the East Front for a few turns, breaking the Russian production capacity beyond repair.

I'd like to test that theory in our present game. Please attack Russia. [:D] And let's compare the condition of Germany and Russia's production and landscape quality in 1946. [:D] Clock or no clock, I can't see how Germany can survive what I got waiting for it.

Agreed, this time it will fail because it cost too much time. Also my redeployment took ages to complete, but I need my airfleet to match for lack of all the infantery, tanks and artillery that you have waiting for me.

For those interested: tanks are nice, but dont try moving them to Scotland as they eat too much capacity on a ship. Rather get 2 infantery in for the kills and make sure you completely overrun England the first time you try, because losing a turn is very expensive.

ORIGINAL: dembe73

For those interested: tanks are nice, but dont try moving them to Scotland as they eat too much capacity on a ship. Rather get 2 infantery in for the kills and make sure you completely overrun England the first time you try, because losing a turn is very expensive.

What's even more expensive for you is after USA takes the UK back in a few turns and gets it up and running again, your Sealion will only be a so-so fond memory. [:D]

I took over the UK in my practice game against the AI and was waiting for the USA to do the logical thing and liberate it but it didn't. Against a human, Sealion can only be a temporary success.

For those interested: tanks are nice, but dont try moving them to Scotland

Too Late!
I to just learned that the hard way.
They fought fine, but no where to go when they get over run by militia with pitch-forks.

ORIGINAL: dembe73

In the game I am playing with RodentDung I managed to pull off a Sealion. It just took one or two turns too long. I lost a 73 percent chance of taking Scotland the first time and my first attack on England also failed and generated more militia to be killed the next turn.

I think if I understood interception rules better he wouldnt have had a chance to get his other troops in by blocking the oceans with my subs or air units. Losses in terms of units mean nothing to the UK, getting time means everything.

Because we play without a timeline I think I will still lose the game. In a scenario with an end date I am pretty sure taking England early guarantees victory because as long as you dont awake the US you can throw all your troops into the battle at the East Front for a few turns, breaking the Russian production capacity beyond repair.

I don't think you can take Kiev cause I got 30 units there now of all types with plenty more in other areas. If you somehow take Kiev, then you are really gonna be weak in the north and Russia will come in.

Also I don't think you realize that you knocked the USA's industry up to double when you attacked Russia. That means I got both a buttload of tech on ground, sea & air plus two decent landing forces cooking. Japan is looking pretty naked after its failed drive into Siberia and the USA loves a 2-front war [:D]

IMO, Germany shouldn't be able to put a single boot on Scotland or England until the entire British navy is on the bottom. I would just blockade the German navy off the Netherlands and off Spain, doesn't matter whether Gibraltar is held or not. Put fighter cover over the fleet. Use the carriers.

Forcing this battle with Germany should put a tremendous attrition on German air power, diverting resources away from production of troops that could be used against Russia.

Britain doesn't have the manpower to win a straight up fight with Germany, so its only hope is to use all the WA resources while the US is not in the war to tech up the fighters, naval, etc. Focus on AA, anti sub, evasion.

Keep enough ground forces in Scotland and England to fight off an airborne assault, rely on navy to prevent an amphibious assault.

I'm not sure I've seen a date in the description of this game. If Germany has spent too long messing around with England, then its very possible that they'll run into a massive Russian force just building up over there.

I've found that England can defend Sea Lion by massing Fighters with the English and Commonwealth production. She can put a lot of Fighters in the air doing this. Once they have Range 2, they can 'sweep' the German air bases and even if they get hit, more than half are right back on station the same turn before Germany can hit back.

Trying to blockade the Germany navy can get expensive in terms of Fighters if Germany IS building up her air for a Sea Lion attempt. Since the are hit on the German turn and not your own, you dont have use of them again till the following turn. Also, once Gibraltar falls, you'll need to have fleets available to stop the Italians raiding into the Atlantic and threatening invasion of England from the south. I dont think the Brits have enough to bottle up both fleets completely (although its possible I'm not doing something right.... [;)] )

ORIGINAL: CommC

IMO, Germany shouldn't be able to put a single boot on Scotland or England until the entire British navy is on the bottom. I would just blockade the German navy off the Netherlands and off Spain, doesn't matter whether Gibraltar is held or not. Put fighter cover over the fleet. Use the carriers.

Exactly what I did. I found trusting the Royal Navy to defend the UK is like hiring Peewee Herman as your bodyguard at a UFC drinking party. Every time the 2 fleets meet, your light fleets will shoot at his subs and subs back at you, air units engage, and the ships ignore each other. Happened every time. Also, putting fighters over your ships as cover leaves the UK ripe for a bombing which is what really screwed Scotland in our early game.

If you leave a fleet next to Spain/Gibraltar, don't expect it to be there on your next turn cause subs and bombers outta France, Med Sea and Spain will make a meal out of it. Also, its very vulnerable to having its supply line cut off by subs which strands it there for a free drubbing. Also the UK fleet in the Med is just counting down its last days too unless it escapes out at a unbearable cost in supply. I reckon the UK heavy fleets & carriers are useless except as decoys for Germany to spend a little time having his subs feed on instead of your convoy.