Submarines dominating surface engagements.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 7:51 am
I find it a problem, the way that submarines can totally dominate surface engagements.
Take a battles with sides A and B.
Player A has 5 HF and 2 LF
Plyaer B has 2 HF and 5 Subs
Assume that HF's have increased evasion by 1, LF' have increased evasion by 1 and sub attack by 1, and the subs have 4 attack 3 evasion. Ie quite typical techs for about 41-42.
Typically, 2 fleets from each side will fight in the ship-to-ship step. This could result in 1 damaged BB on each side. This is ok.
Next, ALL 5 submarines fire for 2-3 hits (defenders will have 15-16 defence if not fired upon, and 12 if fired upon in the first step, while subs attack on an average of 14) With luck, they sink the damaged BB. next the 2 LF's fire at the subs, for 0-1 hit.
Counting the price of the units, the sub heavy side is dealing twice as heavy damage as they are recieving, having less units (in terms of price).
Lets look at how this would play out IRL. The battleships would probably stay pretty close to each other if expecting a surface engagement, and the light fleets would be used as a screen (for player A). The task force would travel at a speed of about 20 knots, increased to 25-30 if neccessary.
Player B would probably also keep his battleships together. He could try to use his subs as a screen, but that would reduce his speed to the speed of the subs (say 15 knots, max). The heavy fleets of player B could also include some DD escorts, for some additional screening.
Anyway, the screening capacity of player A would be superior, and he would be the one most likely to be able to surprise the opponent, and as long as he is travelling quicker (not being slowed down by subs), he can always avoid combat, choose direction, kill the screen of the enemy, etc, etc. When combat _did_ occur, all his heavy fleets would participate, and he would usually pick a time when he would have some kind of advantage. Player B should as a minimum loose his heavy fleets.
The subs of player B would be pretty safe, of course, and could inflict some casualties, but if used for screening they would not all be close enough to participate in the actual battle, and otherwise, the surprise bonus of player A should be even greater.
Bottom line is that i think subs should be less of a nemesis to surface (especially heavy) fleets. I think the americans (with superior tech, that attack relied heavily on radar) managed to kill just one japanase BB with subs. The germans killed at least 1 english BB with subs too, in port. (Royal Oak, was it?). But killing BB was not what the subs were designed for. (Also BB were usually pretty well protected vs torpedoes, mostly fearing torpedo attack from DD's and MTB's.)
Proposed changes (should be easy) :
- Reduce armor of heavy fleets by 2, and increase their evasion by 1. Their ship attack should be reduced by 1 to balance this.
- Reduce armor of light fleets by 1, increase their evasion by 1. Possibly take one away from their ship attack.
- Reduce armor of CV-fleets by 1, increase evasion by 1.
- Make transports priority targets for subs, like artillery is for bombers.
An added benefit of these changes, is that air based bombs become more effective vs fleets, now comparable to torpedoes. (Naval dive bombers would never have been built if they were totally useless vs capital ships.)
Take a battles with sides A and B.
Player A has 5 HF and 2 LF
Plyaer B has 2 HF and 5 Subs
Assume that HF's have increased evasion by 1, LF' have increased evasion by 1 and sub attack by 1, and the subs have 4 attack 3 evasion. Ie quite typical techs for about 41-42.
Typically, 2 fleets from each side will fight in the ship-to-ship step. This could result in 1 damaged BB on each side. This is ok.
Next, ALL 5 submarines fire for 2-3 hits (defenders will have 15-16 defence if not fired upon, and 12 if fired upon in the first step, while subs attack on an average of 14) With luck, they sink the damaged BB. next the 2 LF's fire at the subs, for 0-1 hit.
Counting the price of the units, the sub heavy side is dealing twice as heavy damage as they are recieving, having less units (in terms of price).
Lets look at how this would play out IRL. The battleships would probably stay pretty close to each other if expecting a surface engagement, and the light fleets would be used as a screen (for player A). The task force would travel at a speed of about 20 knots, increased to 25-30 if neccessary.
Player B would probably also keep his battleships together. He could try to use his subs as a screen, but that would reduce his speed to the speed of the subs (say 15 knots, max). The heavy fleets of player B could also include some DD escorts, for some additional screening.
Anyway, the screening capacity of player A would be superior, and he would be the one most likely to be able to surprise the opponent, and as long as he is travelling quicker (not being slowed down by subs), he can always avoid combat, choose direction, kill the screen of the enemy, etc, etc. When combat _did_ occur, all his heavy fleets would participate, and he would usually pick a time when he would have some kind of advantage. Player B should as a minimum loose his heavy fleets.
The subs of player B would be pretty safe, of course, and could inflict some casualties, but if used for screening they would not all be close enough to participate in the actual battle, and otherwise, the surprise bonus of player A should be even greater.
Bottom line is that i think subs should be less of a nemesis to surface (especially heavy) fleets. I think the americans (with superior tech, that attack relied heavily on radar) managed to kill just one japanase BB with subs. The germans killed at least 1 english BB with subs too, in port. (Royal Oak, was it?). But killing BB was not what the subs were designed for. (Also BB were usually pretty well protected vs torpedoes, mostly fearing torpedo attack from DD's and MTB's.)
Proposed changes (should be easy) :
- Reduce armor of heavy fleets by 2, and increase their evasion by 1. Their ship attack should be reduced by 1 to balance this.
- Reduce armor of light fleets by 1, increase their evasion by 1. Possibly take one away from their ship attack.
- Reduce armor of CV-fleets by 1, increase evasion by 1.
- Make transports priority targets for subs, like artillery is for bombers.
An added benefit of these changes, is that air based bombs become more effective vs fleets, now comparable to torpedoes. (Naval dive bombers would never have been built if they were totally useless vs capital ships.)
