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Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:40 pm
by Don Bowen
I set up a CHS (with new changes added) and let it run all night - confuser vs confuser. Got a very strange game. Ran until early May, 1942 and the Japanese had only taken the far north of Luzon (not yet to Clark Field), the northern 1/3 of Malaya (nowhere near Singapore), and were just approaching Rangoon. No apparent movement in China. No ship losses on either side greater than a destroyer. Dull and/or slow (is that D'ow).
But what was really notable was the allied submarine losses. I took some print screens and combined them to get a single jpg to post. In addition, one Japanese sub was lost.
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:46 pm
by Andrew Brown
No apparent movement in China
This is normal I think. At least this is what I have seen in every AI vs AI game I have run. The rest sounds strange - I will run an AI vs AI game tonight and see what happens...
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:13 pm
by jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
I set up a CHS (with new changes added) and let it run all night - confuser vs confuser. Got a very strange game. Ran until early May, 1942 and the Japanese had only taken the far north of Luzon (not yet to Clark Field), the northern 1/3 of Malaya (nowhere near Singapore), and were just approaching Rangoon. No apparent movement in China. No ship losses on either side greater than a destroyer. Dull and/or slow (is that D'ow).
But what was really notable was the allied submarine losses. I took some print screens and combined them to get a single jpg to post. In addition, one Japanese sub was lost.
Oh S&^&% ... since all are sunk by bombs ... looks like this clearly shows the issue with the new "fixed" ASW air routines ... not to say the overflow error shouldn't have been fixed ... of course it should've ... but now that the fix has revealed that air asw is too powerful ( as this clearly shows ) an adjustment to the algorithm now seems definitely indicated. Good job !!!
EDIT: Someone does need to repeat your test for stock 1.5 ... not sure I can do that today as I have to use my system for other tasks ... but maybe someone can volunteer !!!
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:12 pm
by Bradley7735
Hi Don,
The issue with subs has me concerned. But not as much as the AI's issues. Do you think CHS will be playable vs the AI? I don't do PBEM and I'm looking forward to CHS. But not if the AI acts like a wet noodle.
I'm hoping the AI does a bit better when it's 1 human vs ai instead of ai vs ai.
Thanks!!
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:24 pm
by Tankerace
//TO: COMSUBPAC
//
//FROM: Prince, Justin G, Lt. USN
//
//SUBJECT: GET ME THE F*** OUT OF HERE
//
//Due to the severe losses of United States Submarines, it is with the greatest sadness, that I request to GET THE F***
//Out of here at the soonest available moment. The new Kablammo!(tm) Japanese bombs are murder on our boats.
//They do not even require a direct hit. Request permission to be given passage to Switzerland, or at least a transfer
//For me and my boat to the Atlantic. Otherwise, will defect with my boat to Russia.
//
//Signed,
//
//Lt. Justin Prince, Commanding, USS S-41
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:32 pm
by Captain Cruft
That is quite amazing. There are three things that the AI does which make it worse though:
1) Stacks multiple subs in single hexes.
2) Does not worry about putting subs in shallow water.
3) Does not return damaged subs to port.
P.S. I just noticed how "well" the AI has managed to supply PH. Oh dear.
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:20 pm
by Don Bowen
ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
Hi Don,
The issue with subs has me concerned. But not as much as the AI's issues. Do you think CHS will be playable vs the AI? I don't do PBEM and I'm looking forward to CHS. But not if the AI acts like a wet noodle.
I'm hoping the AI does a bit better when it's 1 human vs ai instead of ai vs ai.
Thanks!!
I've noticed the the AI (Ain't Intelligent) does better against a human. I suspect there is some adjust to "dice rolls" to make up for AI weakness. I've also noticed that the AI is much more agressive in some games and I suspect there is a random "set at load" control for this - something like "Asleep, Cautious, Normal, Aggressive, Foolhardy".
I'm going to run another AI-AI overnight tonight. I'll post the results.
Don
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 5:06 pm
by jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
Hi Don,
The issue with subs has me concerned. But not as much as the AI's issues. Do you think CHS will be playable vs the AI? I don't do PBEM and I'm looking forward to CHS. But not if the AI acts like a wet noodle.
I'm hoping the AI does a bit better when it's 1 human vs ai instead of ai vs ai.
Thanks!!
I've noticed the the AI (Ain't Intelligent) does better against a human. I suspect there is some adjust to "dice rolls" to make up for AI weakness. I've also noticed that the AI is much more agressive in some games and I suspect there is a random "set at load" control for this - something like "Asleep, Cautious, Normal, Aggressive, Foolhardy".
I'm going to run another AI-AI overnight tonight. I'll post the results.
Don
Don - what exactly are you going to run - I'd like to duplicate tonight on my machine with stock 1.5 ...
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 5:12 pm
by Don Bowen
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
I'm going to run another AI-AI overnight tonight. I'll post the results.
Don
Don - what exactly are you going to run - I'd like to duplicate tonight on my machine with stock 1.5 ...
Joe. I'm going to run a CHS(126) AI-AI, just like last night. I noticed your post about volunteers for running a comparable test on Stock Scenario 15 so I decided to do the 126 again. Interested both in the submarines and the un-aggressive Japanese. Will let you know.
P.S. In last night's test the majority of the U.S. supply had been moved to United States (base 330). Left 1000/day at Los Angeles and 2000/day at San Francisco. As of May 2, 1942 United States was maxed out and all other U.S. bases well supplied but Hawaii was very short.
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 5:39 pm
by Ron Saueracker
I'd like to see this done with a stock scenario. I'm still noit at hme so can't myself. Pretty interesting stuff Don.[&o] Of course, these results will be attributed to the CHS no doubt.
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:56 pm
by jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'd like to see this done with a stock scenario. I'm still noit at hme so can't myself. Pretty interesting stuff Don.[&o] Of course, these results will be attributed to the CHS no doubt.
My thoughts exactly ... I will be trying to repeat this tonight with stock.
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:58 pm
by jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
I'm going to run another AI-AI overnight tonight. I'll post the results.
Don
Don - what exactly are you going to run - I'd like to duplicate tonight on my machine with stock 1.5 ...
Joe. I'm going to run a CHS(126) AI-AI, just like last night. I noticed your post about volunteers for running a comparable test on Stock Scenario 15 so I decided to do the 126 again. Interested both in the submarines and the un-aggressive Japanese. Will let you know.
P.S. In last night's test the majority of the U.S. supply had been moved to United States (base 330). Left 1000/day at Los Angeles and 2000/day at San Francisco. As of May 2, 1942 United States was maxed out and all other U.S. bases well supplied but Hawaii was very short.
As it turns out - I volunteer to run it for stock tonight but need to know all your switch settings for what you ran last night - so I can duplicate.
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 7:31 pm
by Don Bowen
Allied Sub Doctrine: ON
Japanese Sub Doctrine: ON
Fog of War: ON
Advanced Weather Effects: ON
Allied Damage Control: ON
Hysterical First Turn: ON
Player Defined Upgrades: ON
Vary Setup: OFF
December 7th Surprise: ON
Reinforcements: Allied and Japanese both FIXED
Auto Sub Ops: ON
AI Difficulty: Historical
All three of the auto upgrades/replacements/expands are set to off but I BELIEVE these are ignored in an AI-AI game.
Combat Animations off, reporting off, clouds off, all timing controls set to minimum delay (not that these matter).
Don
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 7:49 pm
by Tankerace
Why AI historical? I have noticed you have to set AI to hard or very hard to get decent results. Granted, nothing to do with this test, but would explain relatively slow game progress.
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 8:14 pm
by jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Allied Sub Doctrine: ON
Japanese Sub Doctrine: ON
Fog of War: ON
Advanced Weather Effects: ON
Allied Damage Control: ON
Hysterical First Turn: ON
Player Defined Upgrades: ON
Vary Setup: OFF
December 7th Surprise: ON
Reinforcements: Allied and Japanese both FIXED
Auto Sub Ops: ON
AI Difficulty: Historical
All three of the auto upgrades/replacements/expands are set to off but I BELIEVE these are ignored in an AI-AI game.
Combat Animations off, reporting off, clouds off, all timing controls set to minimum delay (not that these matter).
Don
Thanks, BTW about how long did your test run - so I long how long to allocate ? I have 3.2Mhz box ...
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 8:16 pm
by Don Bowen
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Thanks, BTW about how long did your test run - so I long how long to allocate ? I have 3.2Mhz box ...
I'm slower - 2.4 Gig processor if I recall and a gig of DDR memory (the top of the line when I last had a job!). Ran about 8 hours - one good night's sleep.
Don
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 8:34 pm
by Lemurs!
Wow! That blew my thoughtfull post out of the water!
I had just posted in the main section on sub spotting and had this real thoughtfull post that said in my test head to head games the Japs were losing like 7-8 subs a month and the Americans 1! +
Yikes! That is just crazy air attacks.
Mike
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 9:07 pm
by m10bob
I have always believed that aircraft are much better sub hunters/killers,but these results SUCK..............
Too early in the war,and much too often for such foolishness.
Do these subs know they can submerge??
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:37 pm
by bstarr
I'd bet my bottom dollar that most of those kills are subs hit while bombers are attacking an allied port. Particularly Manila.
RE: Wow! - Make that WOW!
Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:37 pm
by jwilkerson
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Thanks, BTW about how long did your test run - so I long how long to allocate ? I have 3.2Mhz box ...
I'm slower - 2.4 Gig processor if I recall and a gig of DDR memory (the top of the line when I last had a job!). Ran about 8 hours - one good night's sleep.
Don
Ok so hopefully my not so good 5-6 hours will get close on 3.2 ( and 2 gig ... all though my machine only seems to be averaging use of about 260M with Outlook, IE and WITP 1.5 running ... so not sure more memory helps )