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I have seen this happen twice now, and its needs to be fixed ASAP.

The WA will attack East Prussia where a garrison of one troop prevents USR from entering the war, and if it is cleared, Russia will delcare war. Allowing the WA to trigger Russia's entrance into the war by killing this garrison is just wrong. Unless Germany puts enough troops there to prevent the WA from doing this, it allows Rusian in the war VERY early, effictively crippling Germany.

It is perfectly legitimate IMO. And BTW if WA can attack East Prussia German player did something SERIOUSLY wrong and deserves to be punished.

O.

Oleg, think for a minute. BOMBERS. He can just bomb the one unit that is usually there, and as soon as it is dead, USSR declares war. If you put 5 men there, then a few more bombers are needed. Lets not forget CAG's either. The WA can move a carrier or two within range, and hit it. You dont have to take it, just kil the GROUND forces there. If all that is left there is air units, USSR delcares war.

The problem is that a territory that is supposed to keep USSR out of the war by having one unit on it, at the end of Germanys turn, allows USSR in the war if that infantry or however many you happen to have there. is killed on ANYBODY's turn. Germany doesnt a chance to reinforce and prevent it. Why even put a one unit garrison requirement there, when you HAVE to keep more there to prevent WA from doing the CHEESY move of bombing it and allowing russia in the war.

I played a test game, if only 1 infantry is left there, the WA can kill it on the 2nd turn of the game. Take Norway on turn one. Land your bomber there, move a good bit of your fleet to within 2 spaces (CAG strike range) of easst prusia. and the following turn use those planes and the bomber to attack it. 2 CAG and a bomber is enough to usually kill that lone infantry. Then Russia declares war, and a long list of unlocked territories appear.

Germn sees the end, before the game has really started.

There are things that can be done to keep it from being used on the 2nd turn, but eventually the WA should have enough planes to do it with.



It is not difficult to do AT ALL.

Hmm, sounds cheesy to me, too.

But except house rules I can see no realistic way of preventing this from happening.

CharonJr

Hey wait a minute... bomber from where? You should keep Denmark guarded and protected with ARTY and AAA and if you don't do that you make a HUGE mistake, and bombing EP is just one of the MANY bad things that may and will happen to you as result.

Same goes for Norway. Some Axis players ignore Norway, which, IMO is just about the dumbest thing you can do. Taking Norway on turn 1 is a DEFINITE must for Germany - it is my opinion ever since I started playing this game - regardless of East Prussia garrison.

Again, if you don't take Norway, and play vs. smart Allies player, many many bad things will happen, and possible attack on EP is just one of them.

Take Norway, protect Kattegat or prepare to pay the heavy price. End of story.

O.

Granted, it is a joy-killer to have russia enter early, as well as having Italy taken early and losing the fleets. But these are preventable. If you're aware, prepare!

I have to agree with oleg, this sounds fine.

The rule simulates russia's aggressiveness towards a weak germany...and having no military presence, whether it was ordered out or destroyed, clearly is weakness..

however, i'd agree that russia shouldnt declare war when it's not its turn...meaning that if at the start of the russian turn, the condition applies, then the consequences should also apply...

Hey it's even better when you reach auto victory as Axis, have you ever done that? [:D]

Start the turn with 56 PPs, build, kill, destroy, repair and produce and by the end of Japans turn you have 70, click end turn - blammo!! - end of story [:D] Great fun, especially in PBEM [:D] Allied opponent can only watch in amazement.

One of my PBEM opponents sent me mail, accompanying the turn, to the tune of "I am glad you can't go for auto victory in this game" (I was on 57 PPs I think). He never got to play the next turn, just watch the map and newspaper bringing news of Axis victory [:D][:D] Fun!

O.

Yeah I always take denmark and move a arty and flak up there, however, one good bombing there will wipe them put. I also have to have the flak/arty combination on w. europe, the netherlands (not as important though), and w. germany, in order to protect my resources and to prevent an invasion. There just isnt enough to go around. The AAA in denmark can be avoided by WA taking sweden, takes a turn or two longer, but then you can actually use tac bombers, and fighters (if you increase their speed by one, which a given for anyone who knows wht they are doing) to attack east prussia. Then its EVEN harder to keep it from happening.

The point is, if a WA player is intent on doing this, you are probably not going to be able to prevent it.


I consider the fact that an auto win can happen before russia or the US even enter the war is bogus. Thatss why in future PBEM games I wont play with auto victory on.

And to the person that mentioned Russia coming in on their turn, No, they declare war right away, during the WA's turn.

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Yeah I always take denmark and move a arty and flak up there, however, one good bombing there will wipe them put. I also have to have the flak/arty combination on w. europe, the netherlands (not as important though), and w. germany, in order to protect my resources and to prevent an invasion. There just isnt enough to go around. The AAA in denmark can be avoided by WA taking sweden, takes a turn or two longer, but then you can actually use tac bombers, and fighters (if you increase their speed by one, which a given for anyone who knows wht they are doing) to attack east prussia. Then its EVEN harder to keep it from happening.

The point is, if a WA player is intent on doing this, you are probably not going to be able to prevent it.

You most certainly can. First take Norway and deny it to the WA. If you fail to do this - that's mistake no. 1 for you, and you deserve to be punished, and vs. smart human player you will be punished (East Prussia or in some other way).

If you fail to take Norway or decide not to take Norway, do count on enemy taking Norway and bringing lotsa bad stuff there. Including bombers. So bring AA and some INF to East Prussia!

If the WA player is crazy enough to attack very strong Sweden, before USA entered the war, I think WA player needs professional help [:D]

It means he will leave so many things open to your attack, it's ridicolous.

Note also, that to even have the possibility of attacking Sweden however crazy that may be, WA player MUST take Norway, which brings us back to point no. 1 - that is: German MUST take Norway ASAP.

I consider the fact that an auto win can happen before russia or the US even enter the war is bogus. Thatss why in future PBEM games I wont play with auto victory on.

Thats is something different altogether. I think it is great tool for keeping the Allied player on his toes.

And to the person that mentioned Russia coming in on their turn, No, they declare war right away, during the WA's turn.

Yup. Them bloodthirsty commies react as soon as they see your area empty [:D]

O.

We are listing as a bug the fact that garrison requirements should only be checked at the end of the player's turn that has the requirement. That is the East Prussia garrison should only be checked at the end of the German turn as stated in the rules, not at the end of any player's turn. Coincidentally we added this to the bug list earlier today and hope to get it fixed before the next patch goes out. This at least would give you the chance to take the area back during your turn.

As for Denmark, I try to use a minimum of 2 fighters (or 1 fighter, 1 bomber and 1 flak) plus an artillery unit and infantry. This is early game and depending on the threat level I can have 2 fighters, a bomber and a flak unit there. Denmark cannot be given up without a fight, certainly not in 1940-42.

thanx, that is exactly what I am talking about, except that russia enters the war immediatley following the batlle, not at the end of WA turn.

Oleg, I dont think an auto victory shouldnt be possible, just that is too easy to do without Russia or USA ever entering the war.

Mind to humor a noob and tell me how you can win as the Axis without declaring war on Russia ? From the way it sounds I doubt that the Axis actually have to have 70 ressource centers under their control.

And more important, what can the Allies do in order to prevent this from happening ?

CharonJr

actually, joel, it'd be nice if in any circumstance like the one above, if the condition is met the player gets to make a choice in a pop up box or something:

"East Prussia has been left understrength by the German forces. If you choose, Russia may declare war on them and make your eastern zone active" or something to that effect.

The point being to ask the player if they want to. In some circumstances, they might not want to...

hmmm...i wonder if germany pulls out it's troops in Winter, if the russia turn counts as germany's first attack (or even if Germany gets a first Winter disadvantage being that russia attacked them), or if russia militia will build following russia's dow on germany....have to try that out tonite...

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Hey it's even better when you reach auto victory as Axis, have you ever done that? [:D]

Start the turn with 56 PPs, build, kill, destroy, repair and produce and by the end of Japans turn you have 70, click end turn - blammo!! - end of story [:D] Great fun, especially in PBEM [:D] Allied opponent can only watch in amazement.

One of my PBEM opponents sent me mail, accompanying the turn, to the tune of "I am glad you can't go for auto victory in this game" (I was on 57 PPs I think). He never got to play the next turn, just watch the map and newspaper bringing news of Axis victory [:D][:D] Fun!

O.

I can't say I fully understand Oleg's explanation here of how to start with 56 PPs and then "build, kill,destroy, repair, and produce" your way up to 70. I assume this is somehow done by manipulating the game system rather than by taking new production centers with resources to match, but perhaps I have it wrong. However, if I understand this correctly than IMHO this is something else that should be fixed.

Uhmmmm, no, there's no "manipulating the game system" [:D]

Just "manipulating" the uncautious Allied player...

This is probably topic for some other thread, but here goes... Allied players, like the one from my story above, are usually very "relaxed" and many, as they admit, don't even watch the Axis PP. Or if they watch, they think they are comfortable up till the Axis reaches, say 64 PP, then they start to panic (but it's already too late).

You should very closely watch the Axis PP.

Once Axis reaches 48, it's time to worry, once Axis reaches 54-56 it's time to panic and do something desperate, and once Axis reaches 59-60, AND if Japan hasn't entered the war yet, be prepared to be greeted by "Axis victory" screen once you open the PBEM reply from your opponent.

Of course, it all depends on how many unused, but "conquerable" resources are within Axis reach.

Situation(s) I describe are all with Japan still out of the war. On the VERY FIRST turn of hostilities, Japan can, and should, take 10, 11, with some luck even 12 resources, and raise it's production by that many PPs. If I am at 56, and Japan is not at war, I have to take 3 res as Germany, repair them, and declare war as Japan, and take 11 res more, repair them - game over. Which is what I did in the game I described above.

It is all very doable within single turn (depending on circumstances of course, but with sleepy Allied player who let you come to 56 PP unmolested.... [8D])

O.

BTW (to further continue hijacking this thread and use it for shameless plug) - I am currently inclined to think reaching 70 PP as Axis may be too easy.

That is why my Raw Deal 40 Mod/Scenario requires Axis to reach 72 PP for auto victory.

Raw Deal can be downloaded, and is discussed here:

tm.asp?m=852704

Oleg

Joel:

This is from the Readme file under 1.005:

2. (Change) In reference to section 3.2.6, political garrison requirements are not only checked at the end of friendly player turns. All political garrison requirements (for all players) are checked after each battle is resolved and also at the end of each player’s turn.

So, it does not appear to be a bug, but working as changed (WaC?). Are you saying that the plan is to change it back to what it is listed as in the book (ie, only at the end of friendly phases)?

Thanx.

Yes, I'm glad to see that the readme file caught the fact that the rules did not match the game. I don't remember intentionally changing the game late in development (but my memory could be wrong on this), I think it was just us catching for the readme the way the game worked versus the way we thought it was going to work. I'll have to talk to Keith next week on this, but after viewing the gamey problems with the garrisons, Gary I wanted to have the game work like the original manual stated it should. It may not be easy to change the code, in which case we may have to live with the way it is currently working (as stated in the readme), but that's not Gary's or my first choice.